SoTier

Somebody said that the only QB who mattered was Allen, which was a stupid statement. This year, it's clear that Barkley is the second stringer but last season the Bills went with the wrong QB, and they paid for it in spades.

I disagree. As we found out last season, having a competent backup QB matters, too.

That may have happened to Odomes, too, but according to Pro Football Reference, Jackson's last official NFL season was 1992. He only played 5 years. I got the info that he was injured while with Seattle but before he played a game from Wikipedia.

In 1992, the Bills had Kirby Jackson, Nate Odomes who made the Pro Bowl in 1992, Henry Jones, an All Pro SS in 1992, and Mark Kelso. That was probably the best secondary the Bills had since the merger. Jackson's suffered a career ending injury after leaving Buffalo for Seattle, so he only played 5 years. I don't care who the Bills other safety was in 2003 but Winfield, Clements, and Milloy were all Pro Bowlers either for the Bills or for other teams, so I'd rate them second best. Winfield's last season with the Bills was 2003. He went on to start for 9 more seasons with Minnesota and was a three time Pro Bowler. Clements last season with the Bills was 2006. He went on to start 4 more seasons for San Francisco and 1 more for Cincinatti. Milloy played for the Bills for 3 seasons, 2003-2005. He then went on to start for 3 seasons in Atlanta and played 2 more seasons in Seattle, starting 15 games in 2010, so he was hardly "washed up" in 2003. Since none of the current Bills DBs has been a Pro Bowler or been named a top 100 player, it's hard to make the case that they are "the best secondary ever". They play well in McDermott's scheme but except for White, they don't seem to be outstanding individuals. Other Bills squads have had 1 outstanding individual among pretty average players that played well as a unit. Y'know for a team that supposedly has this "elite level" secondary and an "elite" defense, the Bills sure couldn't stop teams from scoring on them in the Red Zone in 2018. Maybe that's why the rest of the NFL and media ignore them when it comes to handing out honors.

Well, it might be "useless speculation" to you but the reality is that Morse's symptoms from his latest concussion have already lasted three or four weeks, which is far longer than any poster on TSW thought they would when he was put into concussion protocol. Lingering symptoms from head trauma are clear indicators of the serious of the injury. Since this was an injury that occurred in practice where hits are much more controlled than during games, Morse's future is very much in doubt. Concussions aren't like broken bones or ligament damage or muscle injuries that heal over time, and players can have long careers without ever experiencing that injury again. The evidence is pretty clear that concussions become more likely and more serious the more of them a player has.

This team is not that talented at all, so their depth isn't impressive either. Almost all of the talent on the Bills today is concentrated in young guys, only one of whom has "made his bones" in the NFL to this point, Tre White. In this unproven group is Dawkins, Milano, Allen, Edmunds, Oliver and Ford. That Zay Jones is a starting WR underscores the lack of talent at the receiver position, both wideouts and tight ends. On many playoff caliber teams, most of these guys -- all of whom started/will start as rookies -- would have started as part-timers, and some might still be rotational players. Hyde, Poyer, and Hughes are solid, but the rest of the veterans are old or haven't demonstrated that they have regained their pre-injury form. The only other established veterans are this year's FA crop. Brown and Beasley are decent wide receivers but Pro Bowlers they're not. Except for Morse, none of the OLers were bonafide starters. They were backups who landed starting roles when the regular starters got hurt. As for Morse, he managed one practice in pads and has been in concussion protocol since, so his availability through the season is certainly much more dicey than if he'd never had a concussion. Now, the OL may turn out to be decent without Morse, and maybe even good with him, but nobody knows. As for Allen, he looked pretty good in his first outing in the first game. There's reason to hope, but he still has lots and lots of room for improvement. Certainly the Bills offense didn't look as good as either the Jets or the Ravens offenses looked under Darnold and Jackson. That may have less to do with Allen than with the players around him, but media folks aren't looking at how Allen played last year so much as they're looking at how he plays compared to the other NFL QBs, especially the QBs in his draft class.

I stand by my view that unless Allen has a successful career that has pundits asking towards the end of it, "Should Josh Allen be in the HOF?", then the Bills probably overpaid for him. I would think that of any QB that any team paid that much in talent and draft potential to acquire, however, so it's not a personal thing against Allen. I actually like Allen, but I'm skeptical of his chances for success. He has to improve significantly just to become a competent NFL QB, but I think that his biggest handicap may be the Buffalo Bills. The Bills handling of Allen last season was either incompetent or callously $$ motivated. When you -- ie, an NFL football team -- use a first round pick on a blue-chip QB prospect you expect to be the face of your franchise, why don't you hire a real QB coach to help him -- especially when he's raw and in desperate need of high caliber coaching???? David Culley may very well be a fine offensive assistant, but before he came to the Bills, he last coached QBs thirty years ago at a small Louisiana college. Why didn't the Bills bring in an assistant QB coach just for Allen? They could have given Culley another title or the new QB coach a different title if that was an issue. I'm not going to restate my views on how the Bills mishandled the other QBs -- Peterman, McCarron, Anderson, and Barkley. Suffice to say, that was more evidence of lack of support for Allen. Baker Mayfield was offensive ROY and threw 27 TDs, and the Browns traded for OBJ. The Jets signed Le'veon Bell to bolster the short-passing and running games for Sam Darnold. The Ravens are creating an entire offense to maximize Lamar Jackson's talents. The Bills' support for Allen pales compared to what these other AFC teams have done for their 2018 first round QBs.

The Bills had the thirtieth ranked offense in 2018, behind the Fins (7 wins) and the Cards (3 wins), and their moves to improve their offense have been modest, especially considering that other teams also improved. The Bills were never serious suitors for OBJ or Le'veon Bell and signed John Brown rather than Antonio. Mitch Morse, their most notable FA acquisition, has been in concussion protocol since the first padded practice, and their new TE has been sidelined with a broken foot. They used their first round pick on defense, and are hoping that their second round OT/GA and other youngsters will step up and improve the OL, RBs, and WRs. Frankly, on offense, it looks like the Bills are trying to build an offense based on the model of an expensive QB surrounded by mostly bargain-basement talent while they're concentrating on the defensive side of the ball. That's sort of what Carolina has done with some success since they drafted Newton in 2011 but Carolina has had better talent on offense to help Cam out (Greg Olson, Christian McCaffrey, decent OL) than the Bills have given Allen -- and Allen is not nearly as good a QB coming into his second season as Newton was. BTW, the lowest quarter of NFL offenses in 2018 were: RNK TEAM WINS 25 -- Titans ----- 9 26 -- Bengals -- 6 27 -- Jaguars -- 5 28 -- Redskins - 7 29 -- Jets -------- 4 30 -- Bills -------- 6 31 -- Fins -------- 7 32 -- Cards ----- 3 The average number of wins for these "non-offensive juggernauts" in 2018 was 5.875. The bottom four teams averaged 5 wins. Only the Bills and Titans stood pat with their HC and starting QB, and Tennessee did add a former starting QB in Tannehill to push Mariota. Contrary to the fans' narrative in this thread about "bias" and "lazy journalism", it seems that maybe the national media has taken a hard look at the Bills and hasn't been impressed.

Actually, it's not the attitude toward alcohol that's the problem. It's the attitude toward driving that's the problem. Driving is a serious matter. If you want to drink at venues other than your home, then you should make arrangements beforehand and leave your car at home unless your spouse is your DD.

I do, too. I think Miami is going to surprise a lot of people this season. I don't think that their organization is as dysfunctional as Bills fans would like to believe it is. A lot of their problems over the last few years have stemmed from hitching their wagon to Tannehill who's a "coach killer" type of QB: just good enough that HCs and GMs sink resources into trying to build around them only to have them turn up to be "not good enough". If Josh Allen is going to come up short as an NFL QB, then I want him to fail quick and clean like Losman and Manuel, not be "just good enough" that the Bills give him a second contract in hopes that with more time and talent he improves, which was Sanchez for the Jests and Tannehill for the Fins. Well, winning playoff games just does not happen to this organization any more, either. I remember "the good old days" of Kelly, Thomas, Smith, Benett et al when the Bills were big winners despite their rowdy ways. I'll praise Beane and McDermott when their vaunted "culture" produces regular winners on the field.

Drinking and driving is more excusable to individuals who consider themselves "adults" than texting and driving, which they associate with irresponsible teens and twenty-somethings. It's always amazing to me when I hear well-educated, "respectable" people my age -- 50s-70s -- who complain about "the gub'ment" lowering the BAC level and increasing penalties for drunk driving. These aren't alcoholics; they're arrogant and self-centered.

I think there was definitely something dysfunctional in Arizona. My guess is that it might not have been the FO but Kiem did hire Steve Wilks, so That Arizona squad was a manure show from the get-go, and with many of the same players still with the team, it looks like an entirely different team under Kingbury. Rosen looks like a totally different player under Brian Flores in Miami. AFAIK, "NFL ready" simply means that a QB played well in a pro style offense in college. Nathan Peterman was also described as "NFL ready".

Did you watch any of the Miami-Atlanta preseason game with Rosen under center? I did. He looks like a totally different player. I'm not saying he's going to be a great QB but I think that he's back in the group of 2018 first round QBs ready to take the next step to become competent NFL QBs.

Nice OP, Gunner. I generally agree. Overall, the defense looks pretty good, both the first and second units. I was disappointed with the passing game, but not necessarily with Allen. I think he looks to be about where he should be considering his play last season and all he has to learn/improve. He was no where near being a polished passer like Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. 2019 may be the first time he's had first rate QB coaching. He didn't have that in college, and David Culley had never been a QB coach in the NFL until he joined the Bills. He's making better decisions and working on his mid/short game while staying in the pocket, which isn't his natural inclination. It's easy to be accurate when you throw a lot of short passes/dump offs like Darnold and Rosen do. It's harder to pinpoint downfield passes. I'm pretty disappointed with the WR corps. As somebody already mentioned, Foster does not look to be as good as he was last season which is a big problem because I think that at least some of Allen's accuracy issues would be resolved with more sure-handed targets. Getting another WR that puts Zay Jones on the bench or off the Bills roster entirely needs to be a top priority for the Bills in 2020 if they can't find somebody this season. He's just not good enough to be a starting WR in the NFL. Isaiah McKenzie looked sure-handed but I'm not sure about the rest of his game or his durability. He looks to be almost too small to be playing in the NFL: standing beside Matt Barkley on the sideline, Barkley was at least a head taller and Barkley's only about 6'2" or so.

I'm not defending the policies for selecting tenants for the Marine Drive Apartments, but pointing out that they have not been housing for poor people for at least 50 years, although they started out that way when they were built in the early 1950s. Racism and racial/ethnic segregation have been endemic in Buffalo since Famine Irish immigrants were segregated in/around Canal Street and the Old First Ward in the 1850s, and it's still alive and well among too many older Buffalonians who don't apparently understand -- or care -- that the racist crap they spout is offensive. What you are proposing is simply rearranging the deck chairs on Titanic. There's a limit to how many restaurants and/or bars an area can support without adding significant population within the area. Adding more restaurants and bars than an area can support will result in some of the new or the old ones failing. Certainly 8 or 10 or even 30 "high receipts" dates can't support enough new bars and restaurants in downtown to justify the extra tens of millions dollars in taxpayer subsidies a stadium in downtown would require.

Screw crooked millionaire developers and billionaire team owners -- and their supporters -- who want to ride rough-shod over ordinary people while demanding public financing of their projects and stadiums. FYI, the Marine Drive Apartments are not "subsidized apartments". They're publicly owned apartments managed by the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority and regulated by the Department of Housing and Community Renewal that provide affordable housing. Most of the tenants are lower middle income individuals and families, including many retirees who moved there when nobody else wanted to live Downtown.

In the 1960s, the Buffalo's suburban development was primarily concentrated in Tonawanda, the southwestern part of Amherst along Niagara Falls Blvd and Main Street in what is now Eggertsville and Snyder, and west of the airport in Cheektowaga. Development in the Southtowns was modest and very limited compared to the areas north and west of the city, most of it concentrated along Routes 5, 75, and 62 south to Hamburg. The explosive development of Buffalo's outer ring suburbs beyond the areas described above really didn't start until the later 1980s and 1990s.

"You play the way you practice" -- Pop Warner, but what does one of the creators of modern football know, right?

I'm going to address all three of these posts in 1 of my own. First off, this isn't about 'suburbia' vs 'city'. It is about the stubborn insistence on the part of Buffalo's supposed leaders that every single venue/institution has to be crowded into downtown, preferably within sight of City Hall. Do you know why Paladino owns so much property in the Cobblestone District? He's been sitting on a lot of empty lots there (after he demo'd the existing buildings, some of them of historic significance) for 20 years because at one time his pal ex-Buffalo mayor Tony Masiello had the bright idea of moving the Buffalo Zoo to that area and Paladino started buying up properties in anticipation for that project before it was made public. When the scheme was made public, it was shot down by everyone, especially the Buffalo Zoological Society, as it should have been. Buffalo is more than just the downtown area. There are other sites in the city that are better suited for a new stadium, and they aren't that far from downtown because Buffalo's physical area is relatively small (< 43 square miles), primarily because cities in New York State haven't been able to annex their suburbs since about 1900. Some areas of the city aren't good sites for a stadium for a number of reasons, but primarily because they are already developed or are developing. These the areas west of Main Street to the city line which encompasses Allentown, the Delaware District, North Buffalo and Black Rock and the neighborhoods east of Main Street, west of the Kensington Expressway, north of Downtown north to UB South Campus is either part of the Medical Campus or residential areas, some of which are gentrifying because of the Medical Campus like the Fruit Belt. Two possibilities are in the area of the Central Terminal, where there's already rail and rail ROWs as well as lots of city owned property, which another poster suggested, and the area around Dingens/South Ogden Street I-190 exit which offers unused former warehouse facilities, rail, and interstate access. Both of these sites are in areas where land acquisition costs will be much less than in Downtown or Cobblestone, and infrastructure upgrades/reconfiguration would be easier (and therefore cheaper). The CT site is also close to the Broadway/Fillmore business district which includes the Broadway Market., an area certainly in need of redevelopment. If an urban football stadium is truly a development catalyst as advocates claim, then this site would be perfect to prove that. I'm with May Day 10 and other skeptics of football stadiums as development engines, but a stadium near the CT or Dingens/South Ogden Street would at least not disrupt already developing areas.

Look up the meaning of terrorism. Count up the number of mass shootings in the last 20 years committed by whites, blacks, Arabs, and Asians, and then repeat your claim. Sadly, you'll find out that most mass murderers are white males -- by a large margin. I am not talking about registered voters. I'm talking about politicians, our supposed leaders. The Republican Party has been playing on racism since Richard Nixon's "Southern Strategy" of the 1970s, and the current Republican President has repeatedly stoked racism on social media. Hatred is not mental illness, so don't stigmatize the mentally ill by lumping them with mass murders. These mass murderers aren't acting irrationally. Most plan their killing sprees over time, collecting their weapons, making their plans, writing their manifestos. They're filled with hatred towards people who have done nothing to them. As somebody said elsewhere, other countries have mental illness and social media, but they don't have anything like the incidence of random mass shootings that the US has.

Exactly this. When Thomas Jefferson, that great defender of "individual rights", repeatedly tried to silence his critics, especially the ones who mocked him for his relationship with Sally Hemmings. William Randolph Hearst and his cohorts fomented the hysteria that led to the Spanish American War.

Actually, they have not. There have been many incidents of mob violence throughout US history, much of it against people of color, and there have been incidents where 1 or 2 individuals have occasionally murdered a several people over a period of time, usually hours or days. The incidence of random mass shootings in public places, schools or workplaces by 1 or 2 individuals has increased significantly in the 21st century, and the number and severity of these incidents in the last decade has spiked, coinciding with the rise of domestic hate groups. How can you stop "nut cases"? How about NOT ENCOURAGING HATRED???? The El Paso murderer was a white supremacist who posted some kind of manifesto on a web site that attracts white supremacists/xenophobes. Why hasn't the POTUS, who has repeatedly stoked racism and xenophobia on Twitter, condemned white supremacy and xenophobia? Why haven't leading Republicans? Ivanka Trump is the only Republican who has had the "balls" to offend the racists that Trump and Republican Party have courted for years by condemning white supremacy. When the POTUS and a major political party give tacit approval to hatred of immigrants and people of color, it's not a far stretch for "nut cases" to decide to act on that hatred. Nonsense. These mass shootings aren't "crime". They are acts of terrorism, and most of them in the last few years have been committed by white supremacists.

Too many advocates of a downtown stadium dismiss how limiting downtown Buffalo's geography actually is when it comes to access. Downtown is butted up against Lake Erie, the Buffalo Harbor, and the Buffalo River on the west and south, which is why the development and population growth in the Buffalo area is -- and always has been -- to the north and east first. Westward development has always been nil. Outside of the Old First Ward neighborhoods right around the Harbor and the Buffalo River, southward development was late in coming since development in South Buffalo didn't real start until after 1900. Buffalo's geography is why Erie County's population is concentrated in the Northtowns and northern parts of the eastern suburbs. Whether by private vehicle, rail, bus or Uber, traffic from any stadium located in downtown Buffalo would be going primarily north or northeast. It would be the heavy concentration of traffic, especially after games, that would require significant infrastructure upgrades to the highways. Unfortunately, the closest limited access highway to a downtown stadium, I-190N, has limited possibilities for expansion because it runs along the Niagara River. I-190S which connects to the Thruway, runs through miles of established neighborhoods. Geographically, downtown is just about the worst site in Erie County to locate a new stadium. Cost-wise it will easily be the most expensive option for any new stadium because the cost of road expansion. Putting the stadium in downtown by the Inner Harbor or in the Cobblestone district only exacerbates the problems and increase the costs. I'm not sure if there are better sites in downtown, but there are better and cheaper sites within the city outside of downtown, some very close to downtown. Not every venue or destination in Buffalo needs to be located in downtown.

Much better. I think you left off Jones but he would obviously go into the unproven category. I personally would put Garoppolo in the unproven category since that's what he is despite going into his sixth or seventh year as a pro.

Putting Mahomes, Watson, Wentz and Goff in the same tier with 2nd year QBs who were unimpressive as rookies and rookies who have done nothing in the NFL cuts your credibility to zilch.