socalfan

Economics 401 says that when all else fails, you hire a new GM, scouts and coach.

Wow! I mean WOW! Now I've seen everything. Since the end of last season, I've read post by most of you screaming for line help, calling Marv senile and some threatening to not renew your season tickets. And now you say you have a change of heart. You now think you love the guys that were drafted. What a bunch of wimps, fairies, flip floppers, no..no..no...I'm wrong you are not that. You are sheep. You follow the crowd. You've lost all credibility. I think you should nominate ndirish for president of your new club. You can name it the Screamers That Know Nothing. Yep, when I see the posts of the members of STKN, I'll know not to bother to respond. JoeSix, I may disagree with you, but I got to say I respect you. You surely are not an STKNer.

They won't retract their comments. If anyone views the opinions of the draft experts on ANY show as something more than entertainment, then they are sadly mistaken. Television and radio are now nothing more than a means to entertain. Very little insight and knowledge comes from either media.

I rate the draft class an A. I expect Ko to take over for Vincent before the end of the year. I expect Youboty to take over the nickel spot after immediately starting in the ten spot. I expect Whitner to immediately start as the strong safety. I expect Greer and either Baker or Wire will be gone by second round of cuts. I expect McCargo will play opposite of Triplett. I expect Williams to spot Tim Anderson. I expect opposing QBs, RBs, and receivers to be black and blue after playing the Bills. By the end of the year I expect the Bills defense to rank in the 15-18 range. The offense is offensive still.

NFL Draft Scout had Whitner at 18 and rising, Yabouty at 26 and McCargo at 38 and rising. What I see is two defensive backs that are going to make life miserable for receivers going over the middle or runnng hitch routes. And that Yabouty kid loves to come up and lay a lick on the the running backs going off tackle (I don't see this as Greer's style and King might be a little small) These two guys have added a ton of toughness to the Bills. London and TKO will love playing with them. McCargo...he was faster off the ball than either Mario or Lawson. He may not be able to carry it for the full 40 yards, but those first 5 yards....exactly what you need for a 3 and 5 step drop by QBs, ...just incredibly fast. I think the Bills have gone a long way towards making this a Tampa 2 defense. Oh, and I know that a lot of folks here like Vincent at the safety position...but I'm thinking he may not keep that job...he just doesn't hit the way that Bowen and Whitner will. It all depends on whether Bowen steps up this year...and shows enough speed.

I guess it won't take long to find out which of the offensive line candidates can open holes. After having A-train run into you a couple of times, I suspect the good ones will step right up.

I don't think teams are allowed to trade free agents. I think they can only trade guys under contract.

Because they are thinking of playing him as an outside LB in the 3-4 defense. They think he can rush he passer from there.

Wasn't this during the Sherman years? Only 6 starters? Glad we didn't pick him up for coach/talent evaluator.

Do you notice how they only make those lists as some sort of a torture device to be applied to you whenever you just want to be left alone?

Oh yeah! Sunday mornings ... a round of golf ...and I don't have to pack my lunch to eat it during the trip.

Every couple of years this comes up in a referendum(a substitute for state legislature) to fund a transit system(including bus service). It is always voted down.

About the same distance...but that time, it's a killer.

The Bills won't leave because Ralph is too cheap to move. The Bills won't leave because Ralpn is making millions. The Bills won't leave because Ralph is waiting for the team's value to increase. The Bills won't leave because Ralph doesn't want to pay taxes. Haven't you been paying any attention??

I live 70 miles from downtown San Diego. It takes 3.5 hours to get there. I live 79 miles from downtown LA it takes 3 hours to get there. I live 62 miles from Pasadena it takes 2.5 hours to get there. This is life in southern California.

From the numbers it appears that in 2004 the Bills were profitable. I doubt some of the others were. Oakland, Detroit, Miami, Jets, Houston, Minnesota and Seattle don't look so good...Houston and Minnesota because of the debt service they have.

Some conclusions...For the 2004 season, Wilson was not cheap when it came to the players, 18 teams paid out less of their operating revenues to players. The Bills controlled their non-player expenses well compared to ALL other teams except the Bengals. The Bills carry some debt, but the debt of 28 other teams consumes more of their revenue than the Bills. The gate receipts account for a smaller percentage of revenues for the Bills than for 25 other teams. The Forbes article DOES NOT LIST OR CALCULATE - profit - taxes - interest expense and interest revenue - amortization and depreciation. Forbes list operating revenue = ebitda - http://www.fool.com/Specials/2002/02071600sp.htm - http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2...maker010906.htm Team....................Operating.......Debt %........ Player Cost.....Other Cost......Gate Receipts ........................Margin(4).......of Rev(3)......% of Rev(6).....% of Rev(8).....% of Rev(7) Arizona Cardinals...... 11% ............ 53% .......... 61% ........... 28% ........... 16% Atlanta Falcons........ 16% ........... 164% .......... 58% ........... 26% ........... 23% Baltimore Ravens....... 17% ........... 144% .......... 53% ........... 30% ........... 23% Buffalo Bills.......... 21% ............ 41% .......... 55% ........... 24% ........... 20% Carolina Panthers...... 12% ............ 63% .......... 53% ........... 35% ........... 22% Chicago Bears.......... 21% ............ 99% .......... 53% ........... 26% ........... 26% Cincinnati Bengals..... 27% ............ 59% .......... 49% ........... 24% ........... 22% Cleveland Browns....... 20% ............ 48% .......... 51% ........... 29% ........... 21% Dallas Cowboys......... 24% ............ 87% .......... 35% ........... 41% ........... 13% Denver Broncos......... 24% ............ 99% .......... 44% ........... 32% ........... 27% Detroit Lions........... 8% ........... 164% .......... 59% ........... 33% ........... 24% Green Bay Packers...... 19% ............ 18% .......... 51% ........... 30% ........... 21% Houston Texans......... 19% ........... 198% .......... 53% ........... 28% ........... 20% Indianapolis Colts..... 10% ............ 95% .......... 64% ........... 26% ........... 20% Jacksonville Jaguars... 20% ............ 74% .......... 51% ........... 28% ........... 21% Kansas City Chiefs..... 17% ............ 67% .......... 55% ........... 28% ........... 24% Miami Dolphins.......... 8% ........... 104% .......... 57% ........... 34% ........... 24% Minnesota Vikings...... 10% ........... 193% .......... 66% ........... 25% ........... 21% New England Patriots... 21% ........... 128% .......... 39% ........... 40% ........... 28% New Orleans Saints..... 24% ............ 70% .......... 51% ........... 25% ........... 18% New York Giants........ 15% ............ 37% .......... 55% ........... 29% ........... 25% New York Jets........... 7% ............ 60% .......... 63% ........... 30% ........... 25% Oakland Raiders......... 5% ............ 32% .......... 56% ........... 40% ........... 18% Philadelphia Eagles.... 11% ........... 154% .......... 56% ........... 33% ........... 24% Pittsburgh Steelers.... 20% ............ 54% .......... 51% ........... 29% ........... 22% San Diego Chargers..... 20% ............ 62% .......... 55% ........... 25% ........... 22% San Francisco 49ers.... 25% ............ 57% .......... 46% ........... 29% ........... 21% Seattle Seahawks........ 8% ............ 63% .......... 60% ........... 33% ........... 20% St Louis Rams.......... 23% ............ 56% .......... 52% ........... 25% ........... 22% Tampa Bay Buccaneers... 23% ............ 72% .......... 50% ........... 27% ........... 25% Tennessee Titans....... 19% ............ 68% .......... 51% ........... 31% ........... 21% Washington Redskins.... 19% ............ 84% .......... 46% ........... 35% ........... 28% NFL Averages........... 17% ............ 88% .......... 53% ........... 30% ........... 22% Revenues and operating income are for 2004 season. 3Includes stadium debt. 4Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. 6Includes benefits and bonuses. 7Includes club seats. 8Excludes taxes, interest payments, amortization and depreciation. Includes non-player salaries, new equipment, etc.

Point 6 is pretty interesting. I've read that the players have 401K plans, and the owners match either 100% or 200%...can't remember which it was and I can't find the article. But the other point that I find interesting here is that it is about 20-25% of the CAP....and no one ever talks about it. So for this year, if that figure remains so..the player costs are closer to 120mil than they are to 100mil. Point 9....what can I say. If you cannot standardize the depreciation method for all teams (stadiums, equipment, etc can be depreciated) then you cannot compare them properly. Taxes when net revenues are over 1mil are 35%. So most of these teams would be hit at that rate...except for some of them which really don't look too healthy...like Oakland.

According to the Forbes article that is being used in this thread: 1) The numbers in Forbes are for the 2004 season, they are being published in 2005. The numbers are not for last season. 2) Gate Receipts for the 32 teams according to the Forbes article ran from 24mil to 79mil. These numbers include club seating. The Bills had 35mil and the Pats had 66mil. 3) Revenues ran from 153mil to 287mil. The Bills had 173mil the Pats 236mil 4) Operating margins(before tax, amortization, depreciation, interest expense, interest revenue, and tax) ran 5% to 27%. The Bills operating margin was 21% and the Pats operating margin was also 21% There were 14 teams with operating margins below the league average of 17.2%. These were the teams that were having a more difficult time during the 2004 season according to Forbes. In the 2004 season the Bills were a well managed business. Oakland running at a 5% rate was the lowest. 5) Player costs(salary, benefits and bonuses) as a percentage of revenues ran from 35% to 66%. Buffalo players account for 55% of revenue and the Pats players account for 39% of revenue. By the way, if Ralph is cheap, then 18 owners are cheaper. 6) In 2004 San Francisco, Dallas and Cincinnati player costs(salary, benefits, bonuses) were below the 2004 cap. All other teams were above the cap. 7) Debt as a percentage of operating income ran from 96% to 2025%. For some teams debt is out of control. The Bills 196% the Pats 597%. It would take the Bills two years to pay off all debt under 2004 conditions; it would take the Pats 6 years under the same conditions. The Vikes on the other hand would take 20 years. The average for the league was 510%. The Forbes article DOES NOT LIST 1) profit ...... Forbes list operating revenue = ebitda - http://www.fool.com/Specials/2002/02071600sp.htm http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2...maker010906.htm 2) taxes 3) interest expense and interest revenue 4) amortization and depreciation.

I've come to the position that the only shared revenue should be from TV rights. I do not believe ticket revenues should be shared. I do not think naming rights to stadium should be shared. I do not think merchandizing should be shared. But at the same time I think costs should also not be shared. I think each team pays into a single fund 59.5% of their revenues. That money is then used to fund player contracts to the CAP level set for each team. This contrary to general public belief is not what happens now. If the Bills make 100 dollars in revenues apart from TV revenues then they contribute $59.50 to the fund. If the Deadskins generate 1 billion in revenue apart from the TV revenues, they contribute $595 million to the fund. That to me is what the teams agreed to when they said yes to the 59.5% of revenues to be shared with the players in the new CBA.

Oh, is that what he was trying to say!

I think this is a misperception. Everything has happened in the last month....CBA, revenue sharing and now creation of qualifiers. And Ralph has said something about the matter at least once a week since the owner's meeting. It just all seems like a lifetime ago.

So we have circle, lurker and kelly all discussing the finer points of Florio's version of what the revenue sharing agreement and qualifiers are. Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to assume Ralph got what he presented to the politicians from the NFL offices and now wait for the NFL offices to comment on what Ralph's complaint is? Or are you thinking that Ralph just makes stuff up like this then gets politicians involved to a point where they will be very embarassed if Ralph made it all up. The shots have been fired, let's see what the NFL returns.

What I'll remember Price for is dropping that long pass in that Green Bay game when he was behind the defense. It hit him right on the numbers.

We don't have a free market economy now, we didn't have a fee market economy over the last 200 years, and we won't have a free market economy in the future. The free market economy version of the NFL would look like this... No NFL TV contracts. Each team would have to broker it's own deal for it's own local market. No NFL draft. All players are free agents. They can sign contracts, but they would also be able to walk at the end of any contract. No revenue sharing including ticket receipts, TV revenue, sales of team merchandize. No cost sharing as is done now when the salary cap increases due to increased revenues. No salary cap.