ChiGoose

If he got into the chamber by force, then yes.

It is within the definition of seditious conspiracy though: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384 “If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.”

They are absolutely innocent until proven guilty. And Jim Jordan is so stupid I would be surprised if he was even capable of planning anything. Poor guy can’t even figure out how a suit coat works. Here’s a scenario I’d like you to think about, and we can completely remove politics from it. Let’s say that there was a congressional hearing on steroids in sports. And a lot of people in the public thought that Tom Brady was doping. But I don’t, I think he’s clean. The committee subpoenas a bunch of people close to Brady but they all refuse to testify and go to court to fight the subpoenas. Publicly, all of Brady’s camp is saying he’s clean and it’s just his amazing TB12 routine. So I continue to quote those people are evidence that Brady is clean. All of his people are still fighting the committee, saying it has too many Bills fans on it and the one Patriot fan on it isn’t really a Patriot fan. They’re a PFINO, Patriot Fan in Name Only. Some of Brady’s people are able to quash the subpoenas but others aren’t and they give testimony. His nutritionist testifies that Brady was taking steroids. His trainer pleads the fifth over 100 times. Not a single person testifying states that Brady is clean. But publicly, the same people still say that it’s a sham and he’s clean. Now, he hasn’t been charged, or fined or suspended, and the investigation is still ongoing, but at what point would you expect me to re-evaluate my position that he is definitely clean?

If you’re arguing that the Dems screwed up the impeachments, you’re not going to find too much disagreement from me. How are you so certain that no members of Congress were in on it? And to your last point, go check out the actual law around seditious conspiracy. No matter what you say, firearms are not an element of the crime.

No, she put on Republicans who actually wanted to know what happened. Under your logic, the 9/11 committee was a sham because it didn’t have any Al Qaeda terrorists on it. The one thing that’s clear here is that the two sides here are simply those who will testify under oath and those who won’t. That should tell you something. It is also telling that the officials who agree with your line of thought in public tell a very different story when they are under oath.

Well Jim Jordan is an unserious moron who would just act as a distraction, at least that would be my reason. At the time, Pelosi said she rejected them out of concerns from some of their statements. Given that they signed on to the insane Texas v Pennsylvania lawsuit, I would guess she probably felt that they were pro-insurrection which would be inappropriate for a committee looking into an insurrection.

Well you should take that up with McCarthy. Pelosi agreed to three of his candidates, all of whom voted against impeaching Trump but McCarthy withdrew them. If you look at the facts, it’s clear the Dems wanted a bipartisan committee but McCarthy did not because then people could dismiss it as partisan. Also, saying it’s not bipartisan because the Republicans on it don’t count because *reasons* is just moving the goal posts.

The Republicans named FIVE members to the committee and Pelosi rejected two of them, while accepting the other three. The House resolution gave her sole authority on selecting members. And the only reason she had that authority was because the GOP rejected the bipartisan joint committee negotiated by John Katko. The truth hurts, huh?

How is it a charade? It was supposed to be bipartisan until the GOP decided they didn’t want a bipartisan committee. The Vice Chair is Liz Cheney. Do you think the daughter of Dick “Halliburton” Cheney is a liberal shill? Or do you just think all of the Republicans testifying under oath are perjuring themselves?

Twitter basically just tells you what you want it to. It's completely customizable. Follow who you find interesting or fun. Sure, there are promoted and recommended tweets, but your main timeline is what you make it. If you have a problem with your timeline, maybe look at who you're following.

How in the world is it blowing up in the face of Dems? All of the garbage conspiracies like 2,000 Mules have been completely debunked by people testifying under oath about investigations into the claims, we now have a record of what was happening within the White House leading up to Jan 6th, and plenty of evidence of people doing things they admitted were illegal at the time. I agree that there's a disconnect between the hearings and what will matter in the midterms, but that's irrelevant to the purpose of the committee.

I mean, yeah, I do. But that's ok, I like me well enough. You ok?

What a meaningful contribution to this board. You really worked hard at that one.

They claimed victory and went home: https://jalopnik.com/peoples-convoy-too-busy-punching-each-other-to-sneak-ba-1848954352 I wouldn't be surprised if this ended up being some kind of grift, but I kind of feel bad for them? They thought they were doing something important but just completely embarrassed themselves.

Georgia is where Trump is in the gravest danger. Given the way their statutes are written and the content of the recorded phone call, it's very likely he violated the law. While indicting him for Jan 6 related activity is still an uphill battle, Georgia is a slam dunk.

I firmly believe that Trump is morally culpable for what happened on January 6th. But that's a far cry from saying he's legally responsible. I think there's a decent chance we see enough evidence that he broke the law, but I do not believe there will actually be an indictment even if it's warranted. You have a great weekend and Father's Day as well!

CNN could say that the sky was green, Tom Brady is cool, and Donald Trump is a lean 200lbs, and it would have no impact on the hearings. This is sadly probably true about the midterms. Our history of having peaceful transitions of power ended in an insurrection and candidates are running across the country on the platform of the big lie with the intent of usurping the 2024 elections, but the average voter just doesn't care. Maybe we deserve the end of the American Experiment that we're driving towards.

So far, we have learned that the Trump admin was told the election was not stolen and that the Vice President does not have the authority to stop the certification. Despite this, Trump publicly and privately claimed the election was stolen and pressured Pence to stop the certification. I would agree that these actions are not necessarily tantamount to a crime. I suppose you could construct a prima facie conspiracy charge, but it would be very difficult to secure a verdict. But we are also only around the halfway mark for the hearings. We have not heard all of the evidence. Through the hearings and public documents, we know that Trump wanted to stop the certification of the election even though he had been told that he lost the election and the certification could not be prevented. We also know, separately, that there were some groups who planned on breaking into and occupying federal buildings on Jan 6 to prevent the certification. I have not seen anything that would indicate that Trump himself knew of those plans. There are some hints that people close to him might have known, but I haven't seen smoking gun evidence on that. I do not know if there was such a link and I do not know that the committee has evidence of it if there is. So, I am trying to take this evidence as it comes, knowing that there is more to come later. I don't know what the next hearing will show us, but to just dismiss it all as "they didn't prove that Trump said 'I know I am lying and let's go do crimes!' so nothing matters and nothing happened" does not seem appropriate with several hearings still on the calendar.

The committee was already going to publicly release everything in September, but since this all blew up, it looks like they'll start sharing evidence with the DoJ starting next month: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/us/politics/jan-6-committee-transcripts.html You didn't actually think you were making a good point? Did you?

A more accurate reading would be that Trump pressured Pence both publicly and privately to take an action that Trump was told was illegal. Trump even told his supporters at the rally that day about the plan (which again, he was told was illegal). When Pence declined to do what he wanted, Trump was angry at him and when some of the rioters found out, they expressed their desire to kill Mike Pence. Some of them made it within 40 feet of him during the chaos.

Here are my notes from the third Jan 6 hearing followed by my thoughts. RECAP Mark Short (Mike Pence's Chief of Staff): Told Mark Meadows and Pat Cipollone that the plan to reject or delay the count was not legitimate and they agreed. Pence had told Trump many times that he had no authority on January 6th but Trump still tweeted that Pence was in on the plan Met with the Secret Service on Jan 5th with concerns about Pence’s safety and worried that Trump would lash out. Judge Michael Luttig (Retired federal judge and Pence advisor): If Pence had done what Trump asked, it would have plunged the country into a revolution The dual-electors scheme had no legal significance There is no historical precedent for the VP to take action during the certification to alter the result There is no basis in the Constitution or in the laws of the US for Eastman’s theory about the VP’s powers during certification “Donald Trump, his allies and supporters, are a clear and present danger to American democracy. That’s not because of what happened on January 6th. It’s because, to this very day, the former president, his allies, and his supporters pledge that in the presidential election of 2024, if the former president or his anointed successor as the Republican Party presidential candidate were to lose that election, that they would attempt to overturn that 2024 election in the same way that they attempted to overturn the 2020 election, but succeed in 2024 where they failed in 2020. I don’t speak those words lightly. I would have never spoken those words ever in my life except that that’s what the former president and his allies are telling us.” “The former president and his allies are executing that blueprint for 2024 in open, plain view of the American public” Greg Jacob (Mike Pence’s General Counsel): John Eastman admitted to the president that his Jan 6th plan would violate the law Pence told Jacob that he kept seeing that he had some role to play on Jan 6th but did not believe this was true Pence mentioned he first came into congress in 2000 and remembers Al Gore gaveling down challenges to Bush’s victory. After conducting research on this, Jacob put together a memo for Pence that found that there was no role for him. The founders who broke away from the rule of King George III would not have built a system where one person could decide the outcome of a presidential election. There was a meeting in the Oval Office on Jan 4th where Eastman laid out two theories on what Pence could do: either reject the electoral votes outright, or suspend the proceedings and declare a 10 day recess to throw it back to the state. He recommended the second option. Eastman acknowledged that the plan would violate the law but said the Supreme Court would not take it up. Jacob discussed Eastman’s plan with Eastman himself on Jan 5. Jacob told Eastman that the Supreme Court would rule against him 9-0. Eastman said they would lose 7-2 but eventually conceded that it would be 9-0 When Jacob stated that if the VP could do this, Al Gore would have done it in 2000, Eastman told him “Al Gore did not have a basis to do it in 2000, Kamala Harris shouldn’t be able to do it in 2024, but I think you should do it today” On Jan 6, Pence did not leave the Capitol. The head of his Secret Service detail told him to get into the car but that they wouldn’t leave. Pence told him “I know you, I trust you, but you’re not the one behind the wheel.” Pence’s staff who had already gotten into the car then got out. At no point during the events did Trump call to check in on Pence and his family’s safety. Jacob sent an email to Eastman stating “Thanks to your bull####, we are now under siege.” Eastman said that, because the proceedings were interrupted, they were already in violation of the law, so Pence could act to further violate the law. If Pence had followed through on the plan, it would have led to chaos, lawsuits, and violence. It would have established that one person would determine the outcome of an election. Eric Herschmann (White House Lawyer): “It made no sense to me that in all of the protections that were built into the constitution for the President to be elected, that the power to choose the president would be sitting with the Vice President.” Rudy Giuliani agreed that Herschmann was probably correct that the VP had no role at certification There was a meeting in the oval office on the morning of Jan 6th with Trump, Don Jr., Eric, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Mark Meadows, Ivanka and others. Trump was on the phone with Pence and was getting angry. Called him a wimp and “the p-word” and implied he had made a mistake picking him as VP 5 years prior. On Jan 7, Eastman called Herschmann asking to preserve something in Georgia for appeal. Herschmann responded that he needed to focus on orderly transition and that Eastman needed to hire a great criminal defense lawyer. Other evidence presented: After hearing testimony from Herschmann that Rudy Giuliani knew the plan was not legal, there is video of Rudy on Jan 6th stating the following to a crowd: "Every single thing that has been outlined for the plan for today is perfectly legal. I have professor Eastman here with me to say a few words about that.” Called for Pence to take action John Eastman wrote an email explaining how his plan was not legal or constitutional When John Eastman testified before the committee, he asserted his 5th amendment rights over 100 times Questioner: “You can discuss conversations with the president in the media but you will not discuss them with this committee?” Eastman: “Fifth” Sean Hannity texted that the White House counsel will resign over Eastman’s plan and that he was worried about the next 48 hours (sent on Jan 5) Jared Kushner was not concerned about resignations as he was busy working on pardons Quote from the opinion in Eastman v. Thompson: “Based on the evidence, the Court finds it more likely than not that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021” Eastman sent an email to Rudy stating “I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that’s still in the works." A confidential informant from the Proud Boys told the FBI that they would have killed Mike Pence if given the chance. “Anyone they got their hands on, they would have killed, including Nancy Pelosi.” At one point, Pence was just 40 feet from the rioters. Early versions of Trumps speech at the Ellipse did not mention the Vice President but Trump changed them to talk about the plan for Pence to act After being informed that the capitol had been breached, Trump tweeted that Pence didn’t have the courage to do what was needed. Videos show the rioters reading that and saying “Pence betrayed us” followed by the crowd surging THOUGHTS This hearing seemed to focus primarily on Eastman's plan to have Pence prevent the certification of the vote. Once again, it underscores how differently these people talk behind closed doors or under oath than they do in public. Eastman himself admitted that his plan was illegal and unconstitutional. They all knew it but they misled their public because it benefitted them. Even after this, Eastman is publicly pushing back despite having testified to the committee and invoking the 5th instead of stating that he actually believed in his plan. I still don't see a smoking gun of Trump himself saying he knew he lost and that he knew this was all nonsense, but there is ample evidence to show that he should have known and was willfully ignorant. In any case, Eastman has tremendous legal exposure here. He is also an absolutely terrible lawyer and should have his license revoked. Sean Hannity providing advice to an administration he ostensibly covered seems to fly under the radar. Feels like that would be headline news if a reporter for like CNN was providing advice behind the scenes to a Democratic administration. After two hearings, we have debunked the stolen election theories and the idea that the Vice President can pick the winner of the election. Both are good, but given the actions of people like Eastman and Rudy (however idiotic they were), it would probably be a good idea to look at amending and clarifying the Electoral Count Act. Finally, it looks like there was a pardon list being compiled. Which is definitely something you do when you know you're following the law...

We are going to be seeing more of that. If Mastriano wins in PA, I would doubt it would be possible for a Dem presidential candidate to win there in 2024. Mastriano will just claim fraud and throw out the electors.

In an alternative universe, Trump buys the Bills: The Bills never get great and he runs them into the ground like the rest of his businesses, but The world is spared from a Trump presidency That's a tough one to think about.

Trump displays most of the symptoms of classic narcissistic personality disorder. I am not sure he even recognizes other people as people.

So much copium in here. Eastman sounds really badass when he's not under oath, lol. He's such a smart lawyer that he wrote that his plan was illegal and then asked to be added to a pardon list. Legal genius.