HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
I understand the point about not freelancing and making ***** up during the game. I used to get frustrated with Jordan Phillips when he was here on the Bills before because he sometimes did just that on the D side instead of maintaining his gap integrity and it used to result in some gashes for big runs when he guessed wrong.
FWIW, I've heard several podcasts or shows where Eric Wood was talking about this, and his take-home point as I understood it was that rules are not enough to make a top OL in the NFL. The guys and coaches have to be watching film and talking about the traits and tendencies of the specific players in specific situations and how they will modify their rules to handle them in-game.
Oh 100%! Those are adjustments made throughout the week or on the sidelines/halftime during games though not on the fly during a play.
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1 minute ago, Beck Water said:
Kurt Warner seems to believe the underneath throw is the correct call, and the throw to the WR on the LB is going to be a contested catch.
Now obviously it worked for Josh and Shakir, but I think that's where the bird twitter guy calling it a "trust throw" comes in.
Sorry, I can see you think I'm harping on D and that wasn't my point.
No, I'm with you haha. The safest bet there is to throw the under. It was so wide open when the ball left Josh's hand - that's why he took it. The thing I was trying to get across was that it wasn't just a prayer being thrown up that we got lucky on.
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1 minute ago, Beck Water said:
You might be interested in Kurt Warner's piece comparing Denver and Buffalo offensive plays.
This is the first play he diagrams. He IDs it as Tampa 2 and believes the correct QB choice is the underneath guys, but Josh just feels "my guy is better than you" and takes his shot. (So does Russ, but it doesn't work)
It is Tampa 2, but again - tell a QB he's got a receiver 1 on 1 with a linebacker and they're gonna take that shot every time.
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7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
That's actually a very clear verbal description of what I see in the video, well done!
I guess my question is: if one step back is enough to remove a guy as an "threat" to a blocking scheme, how would one ever account for a delayed blitz? It seems such a scheme would be entirely and perennially susceptible to that.
It seems to me that rules have to be able to flex a bit (without rolling into free lancing) to account for the personnel involved. If I'm correct that's Cam Hayward, it's unrealistic to expect Morse to hand him off to Bates like an unwanted sweater. Double that SOB.
And given that's Minkah Fitzpatrick, it seems unrealistic to expect him to be eliminated as a blitz threat because he takes one step back. It seems to me he's using that step back to "sell" Saffold into dismissing him as a threat and turning/looking to his left, and it seems to me that Saffold "takes the cheese".
I wonder if Fina or Wood or someone else commented on that play.
Saffold's eyes hang on Minkah for another second or two after the initial step back, but he can't just sit there and wait on it. He has to protect B gap. So if he were to just sit there with his eyes inside and the 5 tech who stayed outside on Dawkins instead ran some type of pinch and came into B gap he'd have a clear rush lane to the QB. Slide protection works because it's gap based.
Can't start making up rules based on who the personnel is in front of you on any given play. It muddies the waters and then you are just freelancing.
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2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
I understand your explanation of the blocking rules, I'm asking you to explain how, under your rules, Fitzpatrick as the safety is seen as "eliminated as a threat" when he plainly is still there and in fact, as soon as he reads the play as a pass, he blitzes right through the hole Saffold vacates. Meanwhile there's no one else off to the L for Saffold to handle.
I'd be happy to put in pics from the all-22 to illustrate what I'm seeing but they get rejected for being too large. I gotta figure out a way to resize without muss and fuss.
I'm running into the same issue with the pictures, but lets see if I can explain it without them. Fitzpatrick eliminates himself as an initial rush threat as soon as he steps backwards into coverage. You can see as soon as the ball is snapped both Saffold and Morse have eyes on Minkah because pre-snap he is a potential rush threat. Once he declares himself to no longer be an immediate rush threat Saffold no longer has anything holding him to help chip with Morse so he works to his gap side to double for when the defensive end will ultimately work back upfield on Dawkins. Once Morse sees Minkah isn't an initial rush threat his eyes go to backside A to punch the backside A gap rusher to help Bates overtake. As soon as Morse engages with the defender his eyes immediately go back to his gap side (left) because that's ultimately what he is responsible for. Once Morse sees Minkah try to add on he works to disengage from the backside A gap defender to pick up Minkah.
If Minkah had rushed immediately Saffold would have been involved in the block - if he rushed B gap Saffold would have him - if he rushed A gap Saffold would have punched to give Morse time to overtake, but would have gotten eyes back to his B gap after making initial contact with his punch.
Hope that helps clarify.
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1 minute ago, Beck Water said:
Are we talking about the same play? I normally understand you, but I don't at all here.
Saffold does not have the threat eliminated. The threat is Minkah Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick blitzes and hits Josh through the gap Saffold was guarding a moment previously - fortunately just after, rather than just before, Josh releases the ball.
Yes, the 98 yard touchdown play. I explained the blocking rules to the half slide protection that the Bills ran in that original response I linked.
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16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
So fundamentally, Saffold gets pwn'ed by a delayed blitz and moves off to block nothing while there's a guy who might still blitz standing there?
I understand the blocking rules you're explaining, but heads-up OLmen working in concert gotta adapt in play as well. Eric Woods has talked about this. At best, I can say that Saffold has no rappore or chemistry built with Morse yet and that's gotta change.
I think the guy Morse and Bates are blocking is Cam Hayward, and thinking that Sweeney is gonna handle the other DT solo and that Morse will be able to blithely hand Hayward off to Bates sounds like "a plan where you lose your Hat ....a Bad Plan"
Saffold doesn't get "pwn'ed" by anything. He has a potential threat in his gap and once that threat is eliminated he moves on to his gap side to double that threat. Not sure where the chemistry bit with Morse is coming from. The rules are the rules and freelancing will get you beat.
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6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
Where's @HoofHearted?
Can you explain the zone blocking rules that cause Saffold to turn away from blocking Minkah Fitzpatrick and leaving him to flatten Josh while Morse is engaged with a blocker? Even if Morse is supposed to pass his guy off to Bates and take on Fitzpatrick, shouldn't Saffold at least chip Fitzpatrick to give Morse time?
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2 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:
I don’t know how anyone can watch that throw and think he’s a system QB
Everyone is a "system" player. You either get guys who fit that system or you mold your system around what your players do best. We do a really good job of both.
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52 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:
Agree. When Diggs motions his left arm before the snap is that a potential tell for future defenders he is asking for the ball?
Also in the third tweet, watch the reaction to the pass from the Steelers #97, hilarious.
He's alerting the ref that he's off the LoS.
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15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
On the dude - no idea, never heard of him. Read his twitter bio and your guess is as good as mine.
On the Cover 3 - Erik Turner broke this down on the Cover1 film room this week. 2:40 in if the time stamp doesn't work He says the Steelers showed Cover3 but it was actually a Tampa 2 look. I don't think Allen was "throwing a prayer" into triple coverage but that explains why Diggs was all alone, and can we agree that throwing into what's actually a 2 high look may get Josh into trouble with a better secondary?
He's right. I didn't see the bottom side corner before. Still follows the sample principles I was talking about earlier though - the Mike Linebacker is a wall player to give the corner and Safety time to get to the throw. It's still the right read with the deep half player coming from so far outside.
Diggs looks so open because the Safety to that side is reading Allen's eyes. If Allen were looking Diggs way he'd be tighter on Diggs over the top.
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3 hours ago, Beck Water said:
Speaking solely for myself, the wild factor:
-he's got two DB in the area at the catch point, one able to make a play on the catch and both able to potentially pick any deflection by the rook
-Diggs appears to be more open
Matt Waldman calls this a "trust throw", would you disagree?
Offense was in trips to the field with a wide split by #1 to widen the corner - Steelers are sitting in Cover 3. Shakir is running the seam. That's a LONG way for the corner and backside Safety to travel. Mike has to carry or wall a vertical by #3 to give the Safety and Corner time to get over top. Was it an impressive throw and catch? Certainly. This notion that Allen was just throwing up a prayer into triple coverage is far from the truth though.
Here's what Allen is seeing as he releases the ball:
The corner doesn't come into the frame until the ball is about halfway to Shakir. Again, impressive throw and catch, but to me this is just two dudes understanding the scheme they are running vs the scheme they are seeing from the defense and attacking it at it's weakest point for maximum gains. Just all around good execution.
Side note - who is the dude talking in the twitter video? He doesn't sound like he has a clue what he's saying lol.
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13 hours ago, NickelCity said:
Just wild that Josh throws that ball.
He's got a receiver 1 on 1 with a Linebacker. What's wild about it?
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1 minute ago, Big Turk said:
I know he attended the Von Miller pass rush summit and Miller has been taking the DE's under his wing...I've never seen that move from him before
Yeah, he definitely didn't in college. He was very vanilla - basically worked three techniques - speed, bull, and long arm.
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1 hour ago, Big Turk said:
I'll add another one...Is This AJE or Von Miller?
Look at the bend and "ghost rush" he learned from Miller...
Has this part been reported? Very surprising this wasn't already in his bag of tricks with how much he likes using the long arm.
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3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
So theoretically Bates is the guy who is just kinda in No Man's Land on this play...he doesn't really do much of anything other than put one arm on Morse's player but isn't in position to take over for the block so Morse almost "Do Si Do's" the player he is blocking into the delayed blitzer which buys the half second Allen needs to get the pass off.
Bates is alright initially - punch to your gap. Morse gets squared up on the guy after Bates punch which is really the issue - he needs to keep his left arm free in order to work off to the second level defender if he rushes. The pocket is fairly clean - there's a clear path for Josh to be able to step up into - he just didn't.
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11 hours ago, MPT said:
Is it always so rigid that players aren't allowed to improvise in an obvious situation like this? Clearly it's a delayed blitz and clearly Dawkins and Morse are occupied and holding their blocks. So why wouldn't Saffold slide back to the blitz gap instead of wandering around in space?
Or is this actually Morse's fault for not shifting even though he was already engaged before the blitz came?
Morse's/Bates - Bates should overtake Morse's guy and Morse should be free to then work to the extra rusher.
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16 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Watching the reverse angle on that play and Allen is pretty close to being sacked for a safety due to Saffold going to double team nobody and leaving a guy in front of him with a clear path to the QB.
Now, granted, this could have been how they decide to block it up because Bates has nobody to block(the Steeler player in front of him doesn't rush and kid of just stands there and Morse ends up sort of coming off his block to get a piece of that defender, but it was more like he steered the Pittsburgh defender he was blocking into the way of the other guy and bumped him off course. That defender actually gets a hit on Allen on the play but it doesn't matter because...well Josh Allen is freaking Josh Allen.
Just seems really weird to block it up like that when Dawkins had his man stonewalled...I would have to think Saffold was supposed to block the dude that hit Allen on that play??
@HoofHearted any thoughts?
It's a half slide protection. Basically you lock the backside tackle (RT) and every other Offensive Lineman is responsible for the gap to their left. The Backs will insert backside B gap looking inside/out. Saffold is responsible for the left side B gap - when he see's the defender back up at the snap he is no longer a B gap threat and so he works to double to his gap. Morse is ultimately responsible for passing off his block to Bates so that he can work to that left side A gap if something shows.
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14 hours ago, Big Turk said:
I am honestly not sure how Davis keeps doing it. He only runs a 4.54 40 which is average speed for a WR and certainly not the type of speed that would make you think he has the ability to consistently take the top off a defense, but yet here we are.
Since Davis has come into the NFL, he ranks 4th with an average of 18.0 YPC. The only 3 players ahead of him are either fading players like DeSean Jackson who is currently a UFA, Henry Ruggs who is no longer playing and likely never will again, and John Ross who is a bit player and a one trick pony.
All of them are speed guys. Looking at the receivers directly after him, you have Marques Valdez-Scantling, Donovan People-Jones and Breshard Perriman. Again all speed guys...
Davis doesn't fit the mold of a deep threat but yet he is one of the best ones in the NFL and consistently gets open deep.
So my question is how?? Is he simply great at setting up CBs with moves to get them turned or to slow down and then runs by them or does he have much faster play speed than what he ran in the 40?
I don't think anyone thought when we drafted him we were getting the NFL's best deep threat(by the numbers at least...I would still pick Hill obviously if I had to have one play) but yet he has turned into the big play WR for us.
Combination of Diggs pulling coverage and choice routes within the scheme.
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DaQuan Jones. This dudes play has elevated the play of others on the defense far more than any other player out there imo.
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1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:
What a great problem to have. DB was a big concern coming into this season with no Tre White. It was considered a thin,weak spot on the defense
We now see that it is a great strength with Elam and Benford balling as rookies and Dane picking up where he left off with great play.
This also gives Bill's the luxury to wait as long as needed for Tre to return. Beane doesn't miss!
We now have what seems like 5 legit starters at CB , including Taron. So what do the Bills do with Tre?
Elam these last two games has been phenomenal. I think he gave up 1 reception in the last 2 games while playing the whole game.
Dane has looked phenomenal. The only WR to really do anything vs our secondary was Kupp.
These guys take away nearly every WR , week in and week out.
I'm thinking we might try to swing a trade for 1 of these young studs, I mean it's just incredible how smooth they transitioned.
I was also thinking rotating them by series, playing the hot hand but I'm not a big fan of that. I like DBs to get in a rhythm and pick up on their opponents tendencies.
Either way, amazing problem to have and interested in your opinions on this.
Go Bills
Tre will replace the rookies. They've been given a bunch of help so far. Playing Tre and Dane allows Frazier to do more with the scheme than they've been able to do so far this year.
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6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
I found a site that has tons of actual playbooks in PDF formats from a bunch of NFL teams and college teams and am amazed at how much stuff there is to know and understand on every play for players and how the "rules" changed based on formations and personnel groupings...it opened up a whole new understanding of how players could be on the wrong page with each other during a game...
The complexity of some of this stuff is mind boggling to me...for example, these are from the Bills 2003 defensive playbook and are Greggo's "Pressure Packages" from his time here. Just looking at this one play for example, there are 8 different "versions" of this play based on personnel group and formation. Now imagine having all these different "versions" to keep track of for every play you have to know. And I am sure there are way more things to remember than just that...anyone who claims football players are dumb never read through one of these...there is no way you can be dumb and pick this stuff up, at least not very well.
Haha. That looks a lot more complex than what it actually is. When you break it down positionally it simplifies, but yes, things can get complex.
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32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Awesome! So one thing I am curious about and something I have heard is that coverages are a lot more complex in the NFL than in college because in college based on NCAA rules you don't have as much practice time with the players as they do in the NFL. How much truth is there to that and what are some things that you would have liked to implement defensively that you couldn't because it would be too complex if there were any?
IMO you're able to have more complex things in at the NFL level because they aren't teaching a ton of technique (for the most part). I think that's where the Bills have separated themselves from others in the NFL - they still focus on the fundamentals of the game and spend time working the little technique stuff whereas most teams expect guys to come in with the technique already developed and they focus solely on scheme. At the end of the day coverages are coverages - there's only so many ways you can slice an apple and still be sound. The complexity comes in how teams are able to disguise their coverages.
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10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Or you are blitzing Josh Allen and he makes your unblocked defender look silly and escapes outside and then throws deep? Would you still attempt to blitz Allen if you were a DC against him?
I have so many questions for you in regards to things as you obviously have huge amounts of knowledge the normal person does not...
Can I ask at what level you were a DC? College I would assume?
Well yeah, that's always the risk/reward you have to weigh based on who you're playing lol. 0 blitzing Josh or Lamar would scare the hell out of me. Much safer to send 5, attack the protection to where you can guarantee a 1 on 1 with a back, and play Cover 1 or Zone behind it. And yes, at the high school and college level.
So You Wanna Be an NFL QB?
in The Stadium Wall
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Minkah was actually a coverage player on that play. He had combo coverage on the back. When he stepped up away from him that's what gave him the ability to rush the pass since he became a free player.