HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:
If the RB runs a wheel route or motions outside on that OT INT then Peterson is forced to stay in his zone. Instead it’s a chip and release, Peterson can roam, Allen has to hold the ball, and Davis has to make a choice of whether or not to flatten his route… All the complexity happens post snap because the defense didn’t have to think pre-snap.
This isn't true. Quarters rules have the LB play the wheel of #3. Peterson would have been in the exact same spot regardless of what Singletary did.
16 minutes ago, Einstein said:They said during the broadcast that when Hockensen was traded to Minnesota, they put him right in whether he knew the plays or not. They would tell him in the huddle “run to the 30 and turn right”. It’s worked.
That's all well and good, but limits you as a play caller. All the choice concepts we have would have to be thrown out the window for instance. RB is a tough spot if they aren't familiar with the offense. You have to learn run schemes and your keys in those, the pass schemes and the option routes incorporated with those, as well as all the protections on top of all the new verbiage. It's a lot of information that has to be known and digested so that these guys can make decisions in a split second.
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6 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
I can see it - defense disguised their coverage a bit and had Allen fooled. A junky 2nd down play. Just a messy 3 play sequence, Allen has to be better. Dorsey can't burn a play on a weird PA screen either. There's gotta be a balance between, allen needs the ball he's our best guy - and we need the ball out quick or run it because of how the opposition is playing us.
Junky because the defensive end sniffed it out and it didn't work, but the concept was good. 2nd and 2 and you show Trap (which is what Singletary had the big run on earlier) with the blocking scheme to pull the inside backer away from the screen. If their end is lined up in anything other than a 9 tech it's likely an easy completion for a first down because of the misdirection. For those talking about lack of creativity this play contradicts that notion.
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16 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
And he flushed himself right which gave him exactly 1 target. Correct on the mesh call - i dont like how everyone ends up in the end zone though.
Was forced to flush right because of the pressure. You flush to the side contain was lost on. The balls at the 6. Aren't many routes in the route tree under 6 yards. 🤷♂️
EDIT: Davis is setting up the rub. They're anticipating man down here to set the pick so Diggs can be wide open, once he recognizes it's not man he continues to work his shallow.
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28 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
I'm not sitting down one of the few weapons that has worked inside 10 yards (4 of 11 TDs). It was a terrible playcall on 4th and 2. No Mesh, no rub routes, no stick route. The play was literally designed for allen to run around instead of just getting the ball out quick which is what teams normally want to do in the RZ.
Well that's not true at all. It was a called mesh concept (which by designs incorporates a rub) and also featured a stick/spot concept with Knox.
EDIT: Read was Rail > Spot > Shallow. Vikings played zone and everything was thrown off because of pressure and receivers not finding the soft spots in the zone.
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We're seeing a lot more zone in the Low RZ this year than we have in the past. Dorsey is trying to take advantage of this with the follow concepts, but the spacing has been horrible and the route running has been lazy by the collector (the receiver running the clear) on those concepts. It's also concerning seeing us run a bunch of mesh/shallow concepts and our receivers not recognizing zone vs man. If man they need to continue running the route across the field and run away from the defender in coverage. If zone they need to recognize the soft spots and settle. This is day 1 stuff when these types of concepts are taught. We're so used to getting a ton of mileage out of Beasley on these types of routes, but there's been many times this year where our receivers will continue to work across the field vs zone and essentially run themselves into being covered. Even on our spot concepts I've seen Knox multiple times work to a specific spot on the field and then just sit there even though he's got a backer sitting directly underneath him instead of pushing to the soft spot in the zone.
Imo the concepts themselves aren't the issue - or when they're being called - you can see these same concepts being run by every other team in the league every week. They just need to be cleaned up. The spacing, the understanding of rules for man vs. zone, and then the protections to go along with them. It just feels like there's always a misstep by one crucial player every time we get down there.
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Just now, BullBuchanan said:
Not on that route. Look at the play. In order to hit Davis on target Josh need to throw at exactly when the video is at 0:03. He needs to float the ball over the LB but with enough velocity that it doesn't get picked by the safety int he middle of the field and low enough that Davis can make a play on it. It's a near impossible throw. I can't screenshot it because of the website size limitations, but the window is minuscule between #22 & #7 .
Oh, I meant schematically. Double Post is a Quarters beater. You made a comment in your post that the defense the Vikings called was perfect to stop the play (or something along those lines). They defended it well and Allen should have 100% checked it down.
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11 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
That's the Mike Mularkey fake QB sneak play
😲 I've exposed my true identity!
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14 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Why? It's effective and it works. I am sure there will be a wrinkle in there to throw out of it as well at some point once teams over commit to stopping it.
Old school Toss Sweep - Dorsey can thank me later.
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10 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:
Sorry, didn't know that was the only other option. You're right, let's tell the other team when we are going to snap the ball on a sneak, because our only other option is a shotgun run for -2.
Thanks for the levity.
Man, you're a ball of fun with everyone I see. 😆
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To be fair the way we played Sunday made me sick too.
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Just now, The Jokeman said:
Move the team to Southern, California then.
Well lets not talk crazy!
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When it rains it pours!
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11 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:
I'm not at all, sorry but go back listen to Josh and watch the play.
Josh isn't going to come out and throw Gabe blatantly under the bus and say he ran the wrong route, which seems what you want him to do to admit that.
You even say yourself Peterson has outside leverage, which perfectly sets up Gabe to settle middle of the field vacated by the saftey.
They didn't run double post, again your not listening to what he said or watching the play. He said double post-ish type concept, it was an over route and post route, Morris on the over, Gabe on the post.
Saftey has the deep ball covered, Josh says it, he knows he does, he took the over route (Morris) and says he was in position to stop if he threw it over the top (come off the over route to Gabes post), he's not trying to go up top to Gabe.
That's why he tips his hat to Peterson for reading the coverage as a savy vet knowing saftey had it covered over the top, and stayed undernearth.
When the saftey took the over and vacated the field Gabe was supposed to dig and settle underneath -- to EXACTLY where the ball was thrown.
Are you really claiming Josh missed a throw by 10 yards when he was fully behind it? Come on that's silly.
Gabe did the a similar thing last week running the wrong route vs the Jets and gave Sauce a free pick. 5 of Allens INTs have gone Gabes way it's been an issue all year.
You can disagree all you want, but I'm telling you what happened. Gabe settling where Josh threw it makes no sense based on the coverage they got. It's MAN TO MAN after 8 yards with a corner outside leverage! So why tf would Gabe settle and let the corner play catch-up instead of continuing to run AWAY from the corner on the post. C'mon man it's not that hard. Nothing is ever Allen's fault around here lol.
EDIT:
Same concept here - Double Post - Coverage is 0 so the throw goes to #2 as the receiver presses his toes and crosses face but watch the throw - low and outside when Allen is trying drive the throw.
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14 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:
No, that's what he said, go back and listen, he said Smith took the over and was in position for the throw over the top.
Gabe supposed to read the saftey and adjust, this is how our EP offense works with receivers reading coverage and adjusting routes. Smith chose to cover deep, Gabe needs to settle. Allen the tipped his hat to Peterson saying he's a savvy vet good play aka he read the coverage and the play and stayed under neath instead of following Gabe because he had Smith over him.
You completely misinterpreted what Allen said. Bills ran Double Posts vs Quarters which should be a quarters beater since the Safety will go with the Post by #2 and the corner is then responsible for #1 man to man. They got the exact look they wanted from the defense for the called concept. Gabe should win on the Post every time because the corner is playing outside leverage on #1 in quarters so as soon as you take away the Safety there is no longer help inside. Smith was not over Gabe - Josh said he felt that he WAS in a position to make a play if he threw the post ball over the top to Gabe and so he tried forced it (I believe he used the word “drive”) into the window but threw it behind.
Based on the concept and the coverage there should have been no route conversions. Go listen to it again.
EDIT: I think you got hung up on “took the over” - the “over” being referenced is the Post being run by, I believe, Morris. Smith isn’t “covering deep” he’s playing the Post by #2
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5 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:
It's both a bad throw and a bad decision. Josh is trowing directly into the strength of what appears to be Cover 4. Could he make it? Sure, but this is a game about percentages and this defense is designed specifically to make this a low percentage throw. Against lesser QBs it would be practically impossible, but because Josh is Josh he says ***** you and throws it anyway. This time even he's not good enough to beat the stacked odds against him.
Cover 4 opens up the underneath routes which he had in a wide open Singletary.
This is not new behavior from Josh. He's done it his whole career and I posted a video from Brett Kollman about how the Dolphins figured him our last year, but just didn't have the talent to beat him. Now they do and apparently a lot of the league has the same playbook. If Josh doesn't adapt, this will keep happening. He can't fix it with better throws. He has to put his ego aside and take what the defense gives. It's then up to Dorsey to figure out ways to get Josh what he wants by countering the defense.Double Post is a Quarters beater. They had the perfect concept dialed up for the coverage they got. Josh just threw a dud.
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43 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:
Receivers make adjustments on routes all the time that may or may not be exactly what is called. It only works if the qb knows its coming based on both players reading the same thing.
Sure, choice routes. Read one defender and the route adjusts based on what they do. There's nothing on the double post that would adjust that route. Choice routes are designed to take advantage of leverages and cushions and put you in the best possible position based on what the defense is doing. Vikings were playing split coverage - Quarters to the boundary and Two to the field. Safety going with the Post by #2 clears the window for the Post by #1 behind it with the corner playing outside leverage. There is nothing that should change Davis from running his Post there.
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2 hours ago, mrags said:
Yeah? Well they did it on Sunday and Singletary was stuck behind the LOS at least once. But that’s besides the point, the point is Singletary is just not good, doesn’t make people miss, and doesn’t have what it takes to be an effective RB in this team, with this OL.
Yeah, he looks horrible here. I assume you think this is "shotgun draw" as well?
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17 minutes ago, Bangarang said:
The flip flopping this place has with PFF is hilarious.
Also with Edmunds... 😄
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22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
FWIW Dorsey comments "we hit some draws on them" in the long drive (in response to a question about run/pass balance ending in 4th and 2)
About 1:40 into his presser
https://www.buffalobills.com/video/ken-dorsey-make-sure-we-re-learning-from-these-experiences
I'm just picking at the notion that every run out of shotgun is a "shotgun draw" to some around here. We do not run them very often.
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On 11/14/2022 at 7:18 AM, mrags said:
Singletary just sucks. But I will say that running him on a draw out of the shotgun is just dumb.
We hardly ever run draws. Just fyi.
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8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
Yep - jet sweeps can function as the pin block too.
Dawkins and Doyle both had TDs in a PA naked bootleg.
That's true - the tackle eligible stuff is good down there as well, but not something you can rely on week in and week out.
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8 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Any of the Allen edge runs will work there...Seahawk clip I posted is a perfect example of it...basically walks into the endzone untouched.
It's like Dorsey has a bank account with a million dollars in it but is trying to scrounge up money from in between the couch cushions to pay for the pizza he ordered.
Yeah, that's pin & pull. We've seen it some thing year. Dorsey seems to like naked bootlegs a lot more in those short yardage situations which allow Allen to have a two way go (throw or pull it down and run). Obviously that doesn't work within the 10 though. I'm all in for QB run game - guarantees you're +1 in the box - should be yards every time.
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1 minute ago, Big Turk said:
I am unsure where this staple of the Bills RZ package has gone under Daboll. It was highly effective and Allen would rarely get touched on the play. So many scoring drives ended over the 4 years he was here with this play, and yet not only do we not run it in the RZ anymore under Dorsey, we barely run it at all. I can only remember 3 or 4 times this year where we have run it.
So the easiest fix to the RZ issues plaguing this team is to simply go back to basics and a play that is nearly indefensible down there. QB Power.
Power or Pin & Pull? Daboll used to run Q pin & pull a lot down there. Shoot run all of it - Q Power and Q Counter to get some misdirection and mix in some Q pin & pull as well.
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19 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:
It was Gabe not adjusting his route, again.
Double post, saftey took the high route, he was supposed to settle down under (would have been WIDE OPEN) instead he kept running deep instead of settling down. [Per post game press conference]
That's not what Josh said in the presser. He said it was a double post, safety took the first post, but Josh felt he was in a position where he (the safety) could stop if he threw it over the top to Gabe so he tried to drive it.
Seriously, how complicated is our offense
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
We're getting guys open - wide open at times. I think it's more so growing pains than anything else at this point. We're relying on some younger guys to produce for us offensively and we're incorporating some new concepts here and there as well which I think has some of our guys thinking at times. I think Josh did a really good job early on of taking what the defense gave him and he's gotten more and more away from that as the season has progressed, and I think when the offense is sputtering he tries to make something big happen to get it going again rather than just take the easy completions at times. I also don't think he trusts his OL to hold up in pass protection. He's rarely stepping back up into the pocket these past however many weeks which is forcing scramble drill situations. We're also seeing a lot more two man than I can remember us seeing in the past which has played into some of this as well.
I don't think Dorsey doesn't want to incorporate tight ends or backs, but he is using them to chip quite a bit which ultimately just makes those guys safety valves to the flats or the hook depending on the protection. There has been a very clear desire to try and incorporate backs in the redzone by singling them up with a linebacker, but with all the zone coverage we're seeing down there they aren't getting the matchups they want.
Every NFL offense is complex. There's multiple protections, multiple blocking schemes each with their own set of rules for different fronts that you could potentially see, and then all the choice routes that are incorporated into this offenses passing schemes. The EP system gets complex with verbiage because everything isn't spelled out for everyone. Concepts are given names so you have to understand what your responsibility is in that concept whereas in other system they call tells each individual player what their responsibility is on the play. Additionally these concepts carry over through formations - so for example you could have the same concept run out of a 3x1 set or a 2x2 set. So if we take a simple flood concept and run it out of 3x1 the #1 has a Go, #2 has an out, and #3 has an arrow. Call the same concept out of 2x2 and #1 & #2 has the same concept, but now the RB has the arrow. So it's a lot of understanding your alignment within formations as well.