HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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8 minutes ago, Simon said:
I wasn't being clear I guess.
I was also saying (or trying to) that pulling a defender from somewhere to run a box and 1 (a tent and 1?) is probably going to compromise your defense.
No doubt. You'd be playing with a light box and would have to completely change the way we fit things to accommodate the missing body. You'd basically have to end up playing it like a 3-3 stack.
10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:Yes it is... There are many combination coverages where half the field can be zone.. and the other half man
Or 3/4 zone and 1 guy in man depending on formation
You could also have something called a palms look... Where You are pre-snap cover 4
But depending on the x receiver's route and the tight ends route.. it bumps the Play-to man principles.. with the safety taking the x and CB taking the outbreaking route
Not just palms, there's pattern match variations of every coverage.
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2 minutes ago, Simon said:
Pick one
The top quote is referring to the OPs box and 1 comment. That is not done all the time.
The second quote is referring to being able to play man in zone concepts other than the two man situation which you suggested. It's done all the time.
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55 minutes ago, Simon said:
You can have mixed coverages, which typically might be man coverage underneath and zones over the top.
Or you can flip your corners to make sure the CB you want is on the WR you want him covering (i.e. Tre White chasing Davante Adams to the other side of the field at times).
But trying to run an effective zone while pulling one of your guys to man somebody up is probably going to compromise your defense in a way that makes it not worth it. Just too many people to cover on too many parts of the field to do it efficiently, imo.
It's done all the time.
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Yes, basically every zone concept has scenarios where you will end up being man on a receiver. None of these situations are anything like what you are trying to compare to the box and 1 in basketball. It is possible to replicate the concept though, but you have to lose a guy somewhere else (defensive line) in order to do it.
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3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:
Yeah, I guess that's true, and teams do run all those actions out of the shotgun. Mostly what's different is the faking. Out of the shotgun the QB facing the line of scrimmage and can't hide the ball nearly as well.
Also, the stretch runs are different, and the faking is different under center. When the QB runs left to fake the stretch run handoff and then rolls right, the QB's movement is a major part of the motion that misleads the defenders.
The mesh still holds the backers - it's the same concept.
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On 9/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Shaw66 said:
I agree, and it's a good point, but my eye tells me there's a difference. Play action from the shotgun is the simple fake handoff to the running back standing beside or behind the QB. It's essentially a fake draw-play. Kelly and Thurman ran it all the time, but that was at a time when defenses hadn't adjusted yet to that style. Play action from under center is more threatening to the defense. For one thing, the QB makes some affirmative movements in order to execute the fake, movements that look exactly like a running play, and depending on what's being faked, it could be any kind of running play - pulling linemen, draw, power, off tackle, stretch play. It's hard to simulate all of that out of shotgun. So, I think, the defense is forced to respond to the urgency of the play-fake coming from the QB at the line of scrimmage.
The actual fake also tends to be much more effective from under center. The play-fake on Josh's TD pass to Knox last week is an example. Josh had his back to the line of scrimmage with the ball tucked way into his belly while his other hand executed the fake. He and the running back passed so close to each other that it was really hard for the defense to see if he put the ball into the back's belly or kept it. The result was that when he rolled left he was left with very few defenders in front of him. You just can't fake like that out of the shotgun, because the ball always is in full view.
And one other thing about playing under center. If you have a tall QB, and the Bills do, the QB can stand up and make the quick throw to the receiver running a shall inside slant. Or take a three-step drop and throw. The benefit of doing that has to do with geometry. If you're three yards behind the line scrimmage and throwing over the middle, fewer defensive linemen are in the line of sight of the QB than when you're six or seven yards behind the line. (Draw a picture and you'll see.) So being under center makes a few passing plays more effective.
And two more things: Josh has a bad tendency to escape backward, which allows the edge rushers to slip their blocks. When Josh is dropping from under center, he naturally can't get as deep in the pocket, which will help him step up, rather than step back, when the rush comes. And it also helps Josh run a quick hitting draw play - two-step drop and burst up the middle.
I can see a lot of advantages to having him under center.
You can do all of the bolded out of gun.
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1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:
I always thought shotgun play action was RPO
No, not every mesh is an RPO out of gun.
On 9/25/2023 at 9:12 AM, Einstein said:Josh Allen with NO play-action:
61.7%, 99 TD, 51 INT, 86.9 QB rating. 6.7 YPA.
Josh Allen w/ play action:
68.6%, 53 TD, 13 INT, 117.5 QB rating. 9.1 YPA.
This trend should be true for most QBs.
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On 9/25/2023 at 8:56 AM, Allen2Moulds said:
I think when it's 3rd or 4th and a foot, he needs to be under center. Defenses have to alot the proper resources to defend, which typically create great opportunities for both play action and bootlegs. When we go into shotgun, we completely eliminate it.
Why do you think shotgun eliminates play action and bootlegs?
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16 hours ago, boyst said:
C) our cover 2 defense needs a Rocky type change. Learn to fight right handed. Learn to fight cover 1, cover 3, learn to play man this week.
We've hardly played straight Cover 2 this year. We've played Cover 3 and Cover 1 more than any other coverage by quite a significant margin.
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17 hours ago, boyst said:
We lack speed, so cover 2 would be hard - cover 1 is fine.
What is the logic here?
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Don't know if it's been mentioned yet in this thread or not, but we better have a plan for motions. So much of what Miami does is getting number advantages/getting leverage on your force defender through motioning. McDaniel is the best in the league at taking advantage of teams using motion right now. Going to be a lot on Bernard and/or the Secondary (depending on call) this week to make pre-snap adjustments to get us lined up correctly and in the correct coverage calls based off those motions.
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5 minutes ago, The Wiz said:
*dorsey* I think I run shotgun draws from here on out
*basic fans* Every run out of shotgun is a draw 😏 (I kid, I kid)
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12 hours ago, HappyDays said:
Bernard is proving that MLB is a devalued position. In pure talent the drop off from Edmunds to him is massive, and yet the defense as a whole is performing just as well if not better than last year.
Why do you say that? I think Bernard is every bit as athletic as Edmunds is - he's just half the size. The size/speed combination is what made Edmunds a first rounder and Bernard a third. To be honest the way Bernard is flying around it reminds of a young Milano. Guy plays with relentless effort, is not afraid to throw his body around, and plays fast (which screams instincts and confidence). He can get bullied when OL are able to climb to the second level - just like any other linebacker would. Good thing is we can scheme to allow him to be a free flower in most situations.
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Just now, Fleezoid said:
Possibly. Not sure how the snap is timed. I'd be worried it would throw the kicker's timing off. Perhaps just delay the snap a bit so the rusher has to stop.
There are no snap counts on FG. Holders usually flash a hand to signify they are ready to receive the snap, but then the snapper has free reign to snap whenever he wants. This is to ensure no one can time up the snap. This is taught at every level. How Miami got away with having the same operation before someone got them on it is baffling.
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1 minute ago, Fan in Chicago said:
Reading this just made me feel football illiterate 😔
I'm here for you big fella! Let me know what's confusing and I can clarify!
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7 minutes ago, QCity said:
It wasn't just a block, the play was designed to score. Check out Miller running down field in case the blocked ball comes to him. Never seen anything like that.
All FG blocks are taught that way. There's always a block guy to one side and a scoop and score guy to the other. This is nothing new.
EDIT: @QCity - not sure what you're disagreeing with. Do some research about FG Block Schemes if you don't believe me. The information is out there lol.
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3 minutes ago, MJS said:
I mean, the "major" adjustment is have a guy ready to block him.
The major adjustment is to vary the snap like it's coached to be. This is what happens when there's poor coaching of special teams.
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9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:
I have two concerns on defense two weeks in:
1. Alignment. The Touchdown given up was yet another play where we looked misaligned. That os 4 or 5 through 2 weeks and in big spots. Gotta fix that. Hoping it is a time on task thing for Bernard but I wonder if temporarily asking Hyde or Poyer to help would be smart (there is precendent in 2019 on offense when Morse was heavily assisting Josh in calling protections).
2. The safeties do look slow. Shouldn't be a shock given their age and coming off the injuries they have had but both Hyde and Poyer do look like they have lost a step. I'm hoping that they are still knocking a bit of rust off and both have still made some plays when up in the box but I think our secondary may be weaker than we have been used to.
In terms of the first drive yesterday I was never panicked. Josh McDaniels is a good play caller and play designer, they ran their script effectively and efficiently and featured Adams a ton. They were never going to be able to construct an effective plan for the entire game only going to Adams. And once they got past the first 15 the Bills defense won the battle.
Looked like Bernard was trying to bump the front and they didn't move. Ideally you'd want a 3 and 6 to the tight end/wing after that motion. The biggest issue was Poyer getting sucked in. Good play design by the Raiders though showing the down/down from the tackle guard up top before releasing to block the tunnel screen.
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2 hours ago, Hebert19 said:
When von comes back I'd love to see groot used like he was in college. Line him up over center next to Ed or Jones and bring von and Floyd off edge. His length alone would take away passes and he has the skills to beat the center. Not saying he's like micah or myles but he could be used same way. He was a lot in Miami.
We’ve done this before. I see no reason why we wouldn’t do it again.
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9 minutes ago, jahnyc said:
I will be interested to see how much the Bills use 12 personnel today. It was used 66% of the time against the Jets. The offense may need an adjustment period, but I am not sure I fully understand the necessity for such a significant transition in the offense given its overall strength over the last number of seasons. I assume that this is primarily the result of wanting to utilize Kincaid in the offense, but he is a rookie and his blocking seems to something of a project. I am certainly no expert on the various personnel packages used on offense, but does the use 12 personnel to this degree make sense at this point of Kincaid's development? Do we have the right RB, offensive line and TEs to take advantage of the potential mismatches that may be created for the running game as a result of using this package? I don't have the sense that the strength of our offensive line is run blocking. Also, I have thought that Josh's ability to improvise and buy more time are some of his greatest strengths. Would using a strong WR3 be more consistent with those skills?
This notion that we have to do things wildly different in order to get our 12 personnel on the field is baffling to me. We can run the same exact stuff we run out of 11 or 10 with our 12 personnel. It's simply just putting our best 11 players on the field at the same time. That's it.
1 minute ago, jethro_tull said:12 personnel is mainly used for running plays. Some teams actually use 3 TEs.
You must not have watched last week.
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11 hours ago, Beck Water said:
So I pretty much watched the whole thing on Youtube.
I don’t think the limiting Josh’s designed runs is news. I believe McDermott and Beane both talked about it after the season. The word Dorsey used was limiting, not taking out all together.
Obviously to most of us, as a means to limit Josh’s scrambles or the hits he takes when he runs, less designed runs was a “fail” last game. It might be better to put in a couple designed runs early and get Josh some “contact” that he seems to need to settle him.
I’ve never known quite what to make of Dorsey’s pressers. I didn’t like Daboll’s his first year and a half, either - I thought he improved greatly during his time here. Part of that went with improvement in Josh’s play so he wasn’t being called on the carpet by the press, which is what this presser by Dorsey was all about. I don’t want to conflate how a guy comes across in front of the press, with his overall professional competence or his interpersonal abilities 1:1 or with coworkers.
A few thoughts:
-I think Dorsey and Joe Brady have no real clue how to effectively help Josh out of a “Sugar High Josh” superhero mindset. Dorsey said something about “Joe does a great job” (of helping Josh on the sideline). But I can’t recall (maybe I’m missing something) a game where Josh was making unforced error after unforced error and yet pulled it together and turned it around. Anyone else?
-Likewise I think they have no idea how to limit Josh’s running or persuade him to get down or go OOB and take fewer hits. It reminds me of a story where a French nobleman asked the King to intervene on behalf of another nobleman and the King response “I will do what I can for you; I will pray that he leave you alone”. I think all they can do is continue to point it out, and hope Josh absorbs it and makes changes.
-Dorsey sounded most sincere when he said he had all the confidence in the world in Josh and when he said ‘all these guys want to be coached’. That makes me feel that at least outside the actual game, Dorsey has confidence in his relationship with Josh and feels that Josh respects him and listens to him.
-I think their plan at this point is to hope this was a 1 game aberration and that Josh will take accountability and correct himself
Time will tell.
Edit:
I heard a lot of concern from Dorsey for his own play calling and for scheme to put the right guys in the right places. So I think at the least, he feels the need to re-examine his play calling and even aspects of his play design. As he should, but how deep or broad this is can’t say.
6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:It's a fair point - that the last 19 games (i.e. the Dorsey era) is an arbitrary mark. But even if we count Jacksonville as the starting point, he had 4 multiple INT games in his last 12 under Daboll's coaching and since then it is 7 in 19. That is an uptick. It might feel like it is a relatively small change ratio wise but given the small numbers here that matters. But as you are aware, I am not particularly arguing that it is Dorsey's fault. And even if the pattern starts with Jax 2021 I would say the pattern escalates (not the right word but you take my point) with Green Bay last year. It is 6 multiple INT games in 13 since that day. That is where it basically goes from 1 in 3 or close thereto (5 in 18 post between Jax 2021 and GB 2022) to 1 in 2.
I think they have to look at everything and Dorsey and his game planning is part of it, but I have to say I think it is mostly (not exclusively) Josh. I don't think he is the same guy. I didn't think he was down the stretch last year, but because the game after Green Bay was the Jets and the elbow injury I just put it down to that. I am worried now. Genuinely worried. Because I think there is something else going on. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an elite Josh Allen performance on Sunday. Then we can take a breath and say okay it's still there let's build his confidence back up and make sure he has the right support. My concern is we will see another scratchy day where things just don't look right with our Quarterback and the people saying the fix is to give him more easy throws.... well you are right to say they were all there for him on MNF. Dorsey didn't call a perfect game, but there were plenty of chain movers there for Allen on every drive. He just was either not seeing them or deciding not to take them as he bailed clean pockets and forced balls into double / triple coverage.
To both of your points. Dorsey is absolutely a more aggressive play caller than Daboll is. That being said there are very few times where I see a concept called that is just plain bad to what the defense is giving them coverage-wise. I think we saw Dorsey take another step this past week in his use of personnel. We played a ton of 12 personnel, but not in conventional 12 personnel sets. There's a lot of really good things we can do out of those sets, and a lot of really good things we did do out of those sets that make things extremely hard on a defense and the personnel they choose to put out on the field. The advantages that can be gained in match-ups are endless so I'm encouraged to see that continue to grow throughout the season.
I do think that a big thing that isn't really being talked about is the fact that Dorsey calls it from the box unlike Daboll who was on the field for a large portion of his time here (I feel like there was a time he called from the box as well? Can't remember). Josh needs someone to reel him in when he starts getting wild. Daboll was not afraid to do that. I remember multiple times seeing Josh getting his butt ripped by Daboll on the sideline. I don't recall ever seeing Brady do this, but I do think Dorsey would if he were on the field. I wonder if having that OC presence on the field would help reel Josh in a little more. On the flip side - how much does that impact Dorsey's ability to call a game though.
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16 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:
Agree...
Wrong thread (kind of) but since I have your attention and I do (most of us do) trust your insight...
And comments or thoughts on this? I literally just had this pop up on Twitter. I want to go back and watch the entire thing...
This isn't new. The QB run game has been drastically reduced for some time now.
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5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:
In a tight situation like that? Really? I'd be interested to hear more.
Yeah, more often than not when formations are condensed your corner will be primary force. The issue on that play was no one had the first gap inside the widest tight end.
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On 9/13/2023 at 7:45 AM, GunnerBill said:
Correct but as I said straight away in the GDT thread a running back running off tackle should never have the corner be the only man in contain or the first contact. There was clearly an alignment mistake.
Bernard got better at liming them up as the game went on. It is where no pre-season hurts him.
This isn't true. There's plenty of scenarios where the corner can and will be the force player.
Defensive coverage schemes
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
It is specifically cover 4. We've also run variations of match 3 quite a bit.