HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:
I’m “okay” with Dorsey, but…,
He does call some head scratcher plays at times, it’s as if he isn’t seeing what everyone else is seeing type of thing, for lack of a better way of saying it.
I see stuff like Joshes 30 yard pass to digs, that cover 1 highlighted, why is Gabe running a route that is effectively five yard from Diggs when Diggs makes the catch on the same play? I’ve seen this same type of thing with our WRs on different parts of the field in games from last season as well, it seems odd to compact an catch spot with two receivers and the opponents that are covering them, why is this an actual play route for two guys to hit catch points next to each other? That and the screen pass to Diggs for a loss of yards…, odd play calling to me, oh well,
GO BILLS!!!
This is why most fan takes on Dorsey are garbage (this is a general statement, not an attack on you). Understanding the game is crucial. It's scramble drill my guy - it's not designed to do that. By design if the QB leaves the pocket receivers are taught to 1) abandon their route and work to the side of the field the QB escaped to and 2) if running something short - take it deep | if running something deep - come back to the ball. It was just lack of field awareness on Gabe's part - not an indictment on Dorsey.
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On 9/25/2023 at 8:11 PM, McBean said:
Been said, but super impressed at 18:44 in this video.
This guy is getting better every week.
I loved him coming out, just glad he’s now showing it.
Him and Milano are beasts.
What makes it super impressive to you? I’m just curious.
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4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:
The defense morphed a lot with Frasier over 6 years.. after teams adjusted to how they played them
It started as a heavy cover 3 with pattern matching
That it morphed to a combo coverages
Then it turned into a deep tempa 2.. with cover one on third down
There was like a 6 year morph based on how offenses played us ... By the end cover one on third down was the team's favorite
Sure. I've specifically been comparing last year to this year with the Edmunds/Bernard comparisons.
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1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:
Leslie Frazier used tons of pattern matching also
Probably top in the league The last 5 years
When they ran quarters, sure. They played far more 2/Tampa than anything else though.
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Just now, Einstein said:
Again, I believe you are wrong. Cover 1 does as well.Cover 1 does a good job of regurgitating football terms - not sure how much football they actually know though. 😉
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Just now, JayBaller10 said:
The stalemated point is definitely what happened, he just stayed on the LoS with his hands on the back. There was no attempt to compress the back into the QB. Once he found there was a player in his way his sprint came to a full stop. Like I said, I was surprised because when I saw the RB step up I fully expected Tremaine to truck him, push him back, toss him aside, something! I didn’t expect an “oh well, I tried but he’s in the way” sort of give up. Luckily Ed Oliver (IIRC) got the sack on the play otherwise it would’ve incensed me even more 😂
His height was his biggest disadvantage in those situations. Those backs won the leverage battle more often than not because he had no bend and consistently played high.
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3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:
That’s fair, but with a guy his size and speed you would expect/hope he’d toss that smaller player aside and at least affect the QB. I’ve seen numerous LBs go head up with a RB and the RB gets bowled over. I had never seen one sprinting to the LoS just to get stoned by a RB and then “that’s it.” No fight or hustle through the block, just acceptance that the back was there. It was wild to me.
You're taught to compress the back into the QB, if you get stalemated you're taught to be a low box player and essentially maintain the LoS so that if the QB steps up into the pocket you can work an escape to compress it at that point.
12 minutes ago, Einstein said:I disagree. The Commanders motioned into Shotgun split on multiple plays. Bernard was able to recognize this particular direction due to Milano being the Mike.
Again, everything to do with the motion and where the bubble was.
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1 minute ago, Big Turk said:
Did you ever once think that Edmunds was the best player on the field for either team? I know I never did even when he played well. I had that feeling with Bernard last week and I don't think 2nd place was particularly close.
Again it's like comparing apples to oranges. Edmunds did a lot of really good things vs the run that go unnoticed. Basically every big run was blamed on him by people who don't know what they're looking at. As far as pass game is concerned, he was never asked to be as active as Bernard is being asked to be because it wasn't his skill set, but his impact in coverage was definitely felt. It just didn't put him in positions to make those impact plays as often.
Tremaine wasn't a dud like many here think he was, but certainly isn't worth the contract he got.
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7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:
Has nothing to do with them calling out Milano as the Mike and everything to do with the motion and recognizing where the bubble is. Still impressive - shows he's locked in on film study and tendencies based on formations.
Tremaine wasn't good at it. The vast majority of times Edmunds blitzed was because we were in man coverage and the back stayed in the protection which adds him into the rush. Additionally, it forces his rush path to be through the back (to protect vs screens) which made it look like he was just running into blockers to people who didn't understand the situation.
@JayBaller10 read this regarding Edmunds taking on backs in his blitz path.
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27 minutes ago, Einstein said:
This is really impressive work by Bernard. Miami called out Milano as the MLB and Bernard instantly recognized the play.
Has nothing to do with them calling out Milano as the Mike and everything to do with the motion and recognizing where the bubble is. Still impressive - shows he's locked in on film study and tendencies based on formations.
29 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:I agree. Just for example was Tremaine not asked to blitz because they always wanted him in coverage or because he just wasn't very good at it? TB seems to have the skill set to do that. McD is not a blitz happy defensive coach but he can be effective calling them selectively.
Tremaine wasn't good at it. The vast majority of times Edmunds blitzed was because we were in man coverage and the back stayed in the protection which adds him into the rush. Additionally, it forces his rush path to be through the back (to protect vs screens) which made it look like he was just running into blockers to people who didn't understand the situation.
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Just now, JayBaller10 said:
All great points. I just can’t get on board with the sentiment that Bernard has these stats and Edmunds didn’t simply because Edmunds wasn’t being used in the same way Bernard is being used. That would imply Edmunds was misused and that the Bills defensive scheme was at fault for his lack of big time plays, not the player himself. How many times have we said “almost” about a play Tremaine could have made but didn’t?
I don't think it implies Edmunds was misused. The two players are not the same. They each have different skill sets. Neither would have much success in the others roles because they lack the ability to be great at that specific scheme. If anything I think it speaks volumes of our defensive scheme and coaching staff to recognize what their players can and can't do well and put them in positions to be successful.
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3 minutes ago, Limeaid said:
This is what surprises me - Bills are playing more man principles but the Elam still not getting more snaps. I guess they are mixing man with zone and trading off with this concept hard for him to get ingrained into his instincts. That and his habit of not keeping his hands to himself.
Elam is a boundary corner who doesn't play special teams - our current boundary corner? Tre White. I think it's more a numbers deal than anything else at this point.
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1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:
Do you think those differences lend credence to why Bernard has made more impact plays? Or is it the players themselves?
Partly, yes. They are two completely different players. For as athletic as everyone touts Edmunds to be - he wasn't very twitchy and couldn't play man coverage. He was big and fast running in a straight line and they used him that way. He was essentially a MoF Safety when we played 2 and played everything underneath top/down. Bernard is more in line with Milano as far as twitch and bend - being able to get around blocks without having to engage and still being able to re-stack the gap - and being able to play man coverage or man principles in zone match coverages. Its comparing apples to oranges really.
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29 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:
Whats funny is that I see Bills fans, not here but elsewhere, saying Bernard plays in a different defense than Tremaine. Saying Edmunds should’ve been used the way Bernard is used. And people wonder why the Edmunds threads won’t die, it’s constant conversation.
I mean they are being used differently. We played a way more 2 under Frazier where Edmunds was a true zone Tampa 2 dropper. This year under McDermott we're primarily playing 1 and 3 with a little 6 rolled in and we're pattern matching more than we ever have in the past (playing more man principles out of our zone coverages).
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3 hours ago, boyst said:
this was something i brought up and i think it was hoof hearted had asked about. a cover 2 will leave us exposed to have our slow CB's attacking across the field and uphill to the running back.
a cover3 or 4 could press what seems like man coverage against the the outside WR.
I still don't know what you mean by this. Corners won't chase crossers in 2.
I assume we'll likely Cloud whichever side Tyreek is on and play Quarters to the other when we want to sit in coverage. If they get into 3x1 sets with Tyreek at 2 or 3 we'll likely lock our Corner on #1 and play Cloud to the interior two receivers. This guarantees we always have help over the top on him. If we want to bring 5 man pressures we'll roll 3. I don't see us playing much man outside of the redzone unless we're in 2 Man.
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8 hours ago, BillsIsrael said:
Thanks for all the replies - basically I got 2 a basic answers
1. It's done all the time - where man-to man is mixed with zone - part of the files is man-to-man and part of the field is zone etc...
2. It's not really done - since it would leave the zone with only 6 men and more exploitable
My thoughts were maybe using this concept to slow down Hill on Sunday by having him man-to -man all day long with a second defender always in the area as part of the zone to helpSpeaking to your specific scenario of running something similar to the box and 1 concept - it's not something that can be done all game long.
Generally speaking in regards to football coverages there are multiple ways to be able to man a receiver out of zone coverages that don't involve pulling a player out of the front. Hope that clears things up for you.
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Just now, Buffalo716 said:
Absolutely but palms is almost specifically cover 4 match which Sean has run
It is specifically cover 4. We've also run variations of match 3 quite a bit.
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8 minutes ago, Simon said:
I wasn't being clear I guess.
I was also saying (or trying to) that pulling a defender from somewhere to run a box and 1 (a tent and 1?) is probably going to compromise your defense.
No doubt. You'd be playing with a light box and would have to completely change the way we fit things to accommodate the missing body. You'd basically have to end up playing it like a 3-3 stack.
10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:Yes it is... There are many combination coverages where half the field can be zone.. and the other half man
Or 3/4 zone and 1 guy in man depending on formation
You could also have something called a palms look... Where You are pre-snap cover 4
But depending on the x receiver's route and the tight ends route.. it bumps the Play-to man principles.. with the safety taking the x and CB taking the outbreaking route
Not just palms, there's pattern match variations of every coverage.
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2 minutes ago, Simon said:
Pick one
The top quote is referring to the OPs box and 1 comment. That is not done all the time.
The second quote is referring to being able to play man in zone concepts other than the two man situation which you suggested. It's done all the time.
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55 minutes ago, Simon said:
You can have mixed coverages, which typically might be man coverage underneath and zones over the top.
Or you can flip your corners to make sure the CB you want is on the WR you want him covering (i.e. Tre White chasing Davante Adams to the other side of the field at times).
But trying to run an effective zone while pulling one of your guys to man somebody up is probably going to compromise your defense in a way that makes it not worth it. Just too many people to cover on too many parts of the field to do it efficiently, imo.
It's done all the time.
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Yes, basically every zone concept has scenarios where you will end up being man on a receiver. None of these situations are anything like what you are trying to compare to the box and 1 in basketball. It is possible to replicate the concept though, but you have to lose a guy somewhere else (defensive line) in order to do it.
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3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:
Yeah, I guess that's true, and teams do run all those actions out of the shotgun. Mostly what's different is the faking. Out of the shotgun the QB facing the line of scrimmage and can't hide the ball nearly as well.
Also, the stretch runs are different, and the faking is different under center. When the QB runs left to fake the stretch run handoff and then rolls right, the QB's movement is a major part of the motion that misleads the defenders.
The mesh still holds the backers - it's the same concept.
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On 9/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Shaw66 said:
I agree, and it's a good point, but my eye tells me there's a difference. Play action from the shotgun is the simple fake handoff to the running back standing beside or behind the QB. It's essentially a fake draw-play. Kelly and Thurman ran it all the time, but that was at a time when defenses hadn't adjusted yet to that style. Play action from under center is more threatening to the defense. For one thing, the QB makes some affirmative movements in order to execute the fake, movements that look exactly like a running play, and depending on what's being faked, it could be any kind of running play - pulling linemen, draw, power, off tackle, stretch play. It's hard to simulate all of that out of shotgun. So, I think, the defense is forced to respond to the urgency of the play-fake coming from the QB at the line of scrimmage.
The actual fake also tends to be much more effective from under center. The play-fake on Josh's TD pass to Knox last week is an example. Josh had his back to the line of scrimmage with the ball tucked way into his belly while his other hand executed the fake. He and the running back passed so close to each other that it was really hard for the defense to see if he put the ball into the back's belly or kept it. The result was that when he rolled left he was left with very few defenders in front of him. You just can't fake like that out of the shotgun, because the ball always is in full view.
And one other thing about playing under center. If you have a tall QB, and the Bills do, the QB can stand up and make the quick throw to the receiver running a shall inside slant. Or take a three-step drop and throw. The benefit of doing that has to do with geometry. If you're three yards behind the line scrimmage and throwing over the middle, fewer defensive linemen are in the line of sight of the QB than when you're six or seven yards behind the line. (Draw a picture and you'll see.) So being under center makes a few passing plays more effective.
And two more things: Josh has a bad tendency to escape backward, which allows the edge rushers to slip their blocks. When Josh is dropping from under center, he naturally can't get as deep in the pocket, which will help him step up, rather than step back, when the rush comes. And it also helps Josh run a quick hitting draw play - two-step drop and burst up the middle.
I can see a lot of advantages to having him under center.
You can do all of the bolded out of gun.
Elam a healthy scratch part deux (now part TRES) (now part QUATRO)
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
I'm at a total loss for why people thought this would be his week. Equally at a loss as to why people can't grasp that he is a boundary corner who doesn't play special teams. It's a numbers thing with him.