Patrick Duffy

I agree. They both are pretty leveled out. That's where Allen comes in though and I think gives Bills the edge.

Right, actually totally forgot about that. That is a big reason a team will not perform well. Lol yeah really. That slipped my mind. Hell, some may have had the Jets picked due to that.

I agree that was a game Browns should not have lost. But those kind of fluke win/losses happens sometimes.

Yeah, can't argue with that. Yeah don't know if the Bills D would have done any better in that situation, I want to say they maybe could have but never know. And totally agree with you in the bold. That's where I give Bills the edge over Browns. In that situation I think Bills would have won or either would have been in position to win regardless whether the D would have done better than Browns or not.

Gona just go out on a limb here and say AJ Espensa. He makes a big impact this year and makes his presence felt. I'll predict he get 9 sacks.

Oh man. Was beyond bad. Were many times that season I thought we would lose our 1st round QB to injury because he was having to run so damn much. Couldn't blame him though, he knew his WR's were basically worthless. So I get he had to do way more than he should have. Allen was the one and only bright light that season. Agree with all this. Regarding the bold.....exactly right, and if one does attempt to debate it then I would say that person is clueless.

Yeah I think there are more picks for Ravens but Browns not far behind for sure. It will come down to Baker and how he does on whether they win the division I think Oh dear lord yes, was the absolute worst Josh had to work with that I can remember. Was torture watching that group with countless drop after drop after drop.

Yup I agree, although I think Browns have a better pass rush. Anyways, regarding the bold....that is why I posted the question upthread, do you think Bills D would have done any better than Browns did after PM went out? I think they maybe could have because then McD could have totally changed gameplan and I think that even though Bills pass rush wasn't great, Bills do have better CB's and S.

Meh, depends on who is predicting the favorites. I've seen Ravens picked and Browns for the majority. A few said Steelers too, but mostly it's between Birds and Browns. I definitely would not be surprised the least bit if Browns do take that division this year.

Here's a question for everyone, if it was the Bills instead of the Browns when PM went out that game....... Do you think the Bills D could have done better than the Browns D did against Chiefs QB2?

Meh, I don't see much difference in Jets with or without him.

Yeah it's clear that if you want to hang with Chiefs you most definitely need a pass rush that can get to PM. If not you're going to get whooped. Far as the Browns I agree. They are for sure a good, solid all around team. Their ground game is pretty good and I believe that's what is keeping Baker's head above water for the most part. I for sure think if you control the ground game and make Baker beat you, that can give any team a good chance to win. I just don't believe ( for now anyways) that Baker is good enough if the ground games is taken away and he has to make more plays to win. Of course he could also continue to grow and get better, but if I'm picking between Baker and Allen to win a game with it all on their shoulders, it's Allen hands down. And not even close imo. So because of that alone, I think the Bills get the edge.

If D line improves I'd guess Hughes or maybe Addison. Wouldn't be surprised if AJ gets in the mix. He looked better later in the season. If the Dline struggles to get pressure again this season and blitz a lot I would even throw J. Poyer or Hyde in there. They can get to the QB just as much as the LB's at times. I don't see anyone getting double digit sacks though. If they do though it would be great.

I think Browns, as far as the past season goes anyway, had the better ground game. I think Allen is better than Baker. Even though PM went out the playoff game a little early, I would say the D of Bills and Browns are fairly close. Maybe give slight edge to Browns. So both teams are pretty close.

Lol, well if you think a B is harsh then I will just have to 100% disagree. All good though.

I'm not saying they have to hit on all picks at all. Obviously that's not going to happen. It's just my overall grade.That's what I assumed this thread was about, the overall draft grade. I gave it a B. Which is imo pretty good, so don't really get why you assume I'm saying it was a bad draft. I get that not much is expected from a 5th round pick, but had to factor in how god awful bad Petermen was. They you have the 2nd rd pick in Zay. I don't even have to get into how that went. So yeah, with all that imo a B is still decent.

Think they may be good with what they got. Pass rush improves then so does the CB's. Unless they add after cuts. This. Yes looking forward to seeing more of him. Impressive rookie past season.

Bills had defining moments in 2012?

Yup, he does give it his all. Still believe that incident with the ref back then still to this day follows him and at times he gets treated a little different.

White, Dawkins, and Milano clearly were really good picks. When you factor in Zay, Petermen (especially) I guess I would overall give it a B or B-.. I really don't factor in the Tanner pick in 6th round very much due to obvious reasons, however if it would have been a 6th round player that totally surprised and made an impact (which is very rare) it would be an A. Also I don't really factor in the PM miss since so many other teams also passed on him. That's just me.

Lol I remember many fans were high on him back then. Was always a "meh" player to me though when he came to the Bills.

I may be in the minority but ever since he had that confrontation with the ref that year, it seems like life as a pass rusher has been difficult for him. The guy gets held and mangled so often and a very high percent of the time it does not get called. Just makes me wonder how much better his numbers would be if not for that. I don't know, either way he's been a good player that has stayed for I think going on 10 years? Definitely see why some say he is worthy of WOF.

I'd have to say no. Not quite anyways at this point. He's definitely close though

I thought that was pretty much what he posted/meant. lol

Just wanted to stop in and say I can't stand Nascar racing. Boring and sucks. ok I'm out