Straight Hucklebuck

Dawkins - 5 McGovern - 3 Morse - 3 Torrence - Hopefully a 4 Brown - 2 Miller - 6 Jones - 4 Oliver - 3 Lawson - 3 Rousseau - 4 Settle - 2 Phillips - 2 Epenesa - 2 Basham - 1

All you keep saying is the Gibbs pick is egregious. So Carter and or maybe Gonzalez or Turner and then no answer for the 2nd round pick. So no real answer even when presented the premium positions around when the Lions picked.

What would have been a better draft? Lions original picks were: R1- 6th Who was available: Tyree Wilson, Paris Johnson Jr, Jalen Carter, Darnell Wright, Peter Skrownski R1-18th Kancey, Jaxson Smith-Ngijba or any of the Wide Receivers, Banks R2-17th Mauch, Benton, Cam Smith, Gervon Dexter R2-24th Rashee Rice, Stevenson, John Michael-Schmitz, O’Cyrus Torrence, DJ Turner

Thanks Vince, that’s exactly where I stand on Kincaid and Torrence. High-end Offensive talent. Happy the Bills showed that willingness to go offense over defense.

One of the things that bothers me about Mike Schopp and the draft conversation is his insistence that trading down in always the right decision. He contends that teams have no idea who is going to be good, so accumulate more players, more picks. (I don’t agree with that because I think Scouting is real and it matters). Of course I agree with what you’ve written above, there are key positions. But what Mike Schopp misses and what I think is being lost here is that the players you ultimately pick matter. They have to be good. For instance, the Lions picked Jeff Okudah 3rd overall. He should have been a dominant corner. Played a premium position, huge school. But he was marginal from Day 1, then got hurt. The Broncos took Bradley Chubb 4th overall. Was he good? Did he justify the pick? Another guy that got hurt and never really wants dominant. Jadeveon Clowney at #1 overall, worth it? Denzel Ward at 5th overall in the Chubb draft, got a second contract, how is their defense? Are they a good team? Even Myles Garrett. I was listening to 850 WKNR on Friday, #1 overall, but there are some Browns fans that think he collects a lot of empty sacks. The numbers look good, 14 sacks, but there are people who think that’s a lot of empty first quarter sacks and then he disappears the rest of the game. Not saying never draft DE, WR, OT high. I agree they’re hard to find positions. But like Schopp, who you pick matters, they have to be good otherwise who cares if they play a high dollar position.

So trade down and take? Or package up 6 and 18 and draft who at 3-4? The Patriots altered their franchise by trading down a couple of slots and getting Gonzalez? Or the Jags who got an extra 4th and picked up the last of the highly rated tackles? Do you wanted more of the Texas Tech DE at #6 and the best corner remaining at #18 or JSN?

Earlier in the off-season you commented that simply bringing back the same guys on the defensive line - Phillips and Lawson wasn’t ideal, you wanted more talent. Looking at it now, how do you feel about the defensive line? You reference all the available veteran talent on the FA market, but as Beane stated: they have to play for $2M or less. He again referenced low money so I never understood how Hopkins was going to fit. Still don’t other than pie in the sky scenarios about the Cardinals eating 80% of his salary and adding 4 void years on the end of the deal.

You’re not allowed to say that Eastport. The answer is Dorian Williams was highly sought after, as was Bernard and Dodson will be a revelation at MLB. Beane hears the MLB chatter, he acknowledged in his press conference. They don’t always get it right though- see Hines on November 1st, and Hines now. 11 offensive touches after the trade, when Beane was at the podium saying he’s a weapon - slot, out of the backfield, etc. None of that happened. The Bills are a great team, so they get the benefit of the doubt.

Lions got 4 starters right of the gate and correctly moved off DeAndre Swift who was always hurt. Gibbs becomes what Swift was supposed to be. Day one starter at MLB Day one starter at TE (and you could argue who was better LaPorta or Mayer). Day one starter and best Safety in the class Upside developmental QB in Hooker

If Kincaid becomes the best TE in franchise history, then none of the other picks really matter. He should have a good chance to do that.

I understand all of that. Thank you. Listen, it’s unpopular. Bills fans want to cheer and clap for their team. Rush in and defend every position. I praised the Bills for their first two picks. Kincaid made sense after the WR run. Torrence was great. No issues. I just think the Bills got little actual help for their team R3-R7. Maybe I’m wrong, probably am. But you tell me the Cards get Williams, Shorter, Broeker, Austin and Bills get Hopkins? I do that Trade all day every day. Seeing what the Bills got? Got those Pom-Poms just a waving.

Actually if sacks and TFLs don’t count, just tackles, then yes, Dorian Williams was more productive. Also I addressed the position by saying Abdullah played “edge”. Also, Beane kind of cuts your own argument out from under you because he’s most likely starting on the outside given the complexity of the Bills defense and Tulane’s simple system. All from Beane’s mouth. When Beane talks about how fast and athletic Williams is, it just sticks out to me that Jacksonville picked a bigger player, with better overall measurable, big sack production a round and a half later. Our reporters brought up the obvious fact that Bernard and Williams are virtually the same size. We all know Williams is not going to be a MIKE linebacker in the NFL at 6’1” 228 pounds. Same with Bernard. Kline is the starter right now.

Not at all Pbomb. Just looked at what other teams did and made judgements about the value of the players I think the Bills got. Another one for instance. AT Perry to the Saints in the 6th. 2,300 yards, 152 catches and 26 TDs at Wake Forest in his final two seasons. 6’3”-1/2”, so why is Shorter the better value if every GM we know says “the tape” is the most important thing? Ran faster at the Combine, better agility scores and jump scores as well. Shorter is more muscular, and maybe that’s what the Bills decided, but I don’t see how they got any value past Torrence.

My point exactly. Beane acknowledged that “everyone is worried about it” but he feels they have the right guys.

No it wasn’t, I gave examples of the players in the 3rd. For instance, Jacksonville took Yasir Abdullah in the mid-5th. 6’-1” but 237 pounds, ran a faster 40, better vertical and broad with more production. Played linebacker/edge at Louisville. That pick right there showed me the Bills just punted on value. Jaguars got a better athlete, with more weight at the same height, at the same position a round and a half later (45-picks) than the Bills did.

Beane said it - the Bills started talking about Special Teams in Round 3. Williams he was talking about Special Teams. Shorter was Special Teams. It felt like to me, after Torrence, the Bills just mentally exited the draft and took players with no chance to get on the field. No DTs - yes I know Beane said the board didn’t fall their way. The Baylor DT went right after Williams… No DEs, No OTs (passed on Dewand Jones, Duncan), No Centers. Just a miniature linebacker, a special teams Kumerow replacement, a backup Guard and long shot corner.

You mean nobody wants a 33 year old with like 10 career catches?

I think the Bills punted on the draft starting with the Dorian Williams pick in the 3rd. The concept of value just went out the window. Honestly after Torrence they should have just traded all the rest of their picks for next years Draft. If Kincaid turns out to be a HOFer the class is good, but otherwise I think they got next to nothing. Browns had a good draft, I still like what the Lions did, Steelers of course had a nice draft. Bengals not getting any of the elite TEs, WRs or OTs made me happy.

Justin Shorter verses AT Perry both 6’4”. Bills take Shorter in the 5th Saints gets Perry in the 6th The yards, catches, touchdowns all favor Perry, the combine also favors Perry. One key difference the Bills must be banking on is Shorter is 30 pounds heavier at the same height.

If that’s true, he misplayed it, then why not take the trade downs that Beane said were offered?

Turns out he was right on both those players. Say the Lions don’t take Campbell at 18th, does anyone think he drops 41 more spots to the Bills at #59? So the evaluation was correct that he was worthy of a first round pick, even a high 2nd makes sense. Flowers was taken off the board by a team that gets lauded for their understanding of the draft. I find Marino very conventional in his team building commentary. A guy leaves, and he immediately wants to replace that guy with someone who looks and feels just the same. He comes across to me as always wanting the safe, conventional pick.

That’s not the case. Marino didn’t have a reaction video up the moment Williams was picked. As soon as he was announced, I hated it and so did several Bills fans. The gut reaction was ugggghhhh. Even if you like the player, does anyone think he was BPA or the Bills got good value there? At #91?

Greg Cosell liked Jones film. Said he doesn’t have the greatest technique, but because of the sheer size it’s hard for anyone to get around him. Considering he’s 6’8” 375 pounds, started a high-end D1 school, and the Bills supposedly have a great OLine Coach, and took a power player in Torrence at #59, the logical bet would be to take a chance on that player, before a backup OLB (Beane already said he’s outside to start). Furthermore, Spencer Brown has been awful at RT, allowing free pressure on Josh Allen. Build a wall in front of Allen, Bills got no value with Dorian Williams. There are try-hard 228 pound converted-esque Safeties in every draft.

Again, the part where the Bills take a 228 pound linebacker and put him as a Special Teamer and backup on the outside at pick #91. Can’t play middle, and shocker, a guy who struggles against blocks at Tulane, let alone the NFL. The obsession with Special Teams continues.

The Bills punted on this draft as soon as they took Dorian Williams. Had offers to move out, take Dewand Jones, and instead went Special Teams in the third.