Straight Hucklebuck

Where’s all that character that Marrone has instilled in his team? Where is that elite culture he’s brought?

No interest at all. It simply waters down the game like the 5th team in the MLB Playoffs.

What about when McCarron led a disaster of a first team offense against Cleveland? He was getting sacked and pressured as well, with short throws that had no chances of a first down? Allen was up and down against Carolina ~50% completion, but on the whole it was positive. Then he “looked good” against Cleveland. So much so that Sal is saying it’s his job to lose. Then he struggles and gets battered against the Bengals and we knee jerk right back to Peterman or McCarron. AT BEST, those guys are seat warmers for one year. Allen is not going to sit for 2-3 years watching Nate Peterman. Not on a rookie deal, not after #7, Glenn, #12, #53 and #56. So it’s great that you want delay the inevitable because now we are knee jerking backing to our safe spot to start the predictable boring “veteran”, but Allen is the team’s future. If this team is 3-6, McDermott is going to be asked non-stop what about Allen. And if they’re 10-6, Allen is still going to be the Franchise and replace McCarron or Peterman. I completely disagree. Great is great and you’re talking about a first ballot HOF talent. I think we look completely different with Rodgers at the helm. AJ wasn’t able to get any time with the Bengals and he hasn’t been able to put his stamp on this job. Every report from camp was he is safe and throws short.

Fans are going to get really sick of dumping off for 4 yards on 3rd-9 with McCarron. And Peterman could self destruct at any time with interceptions. He's thrown 6 in less than 2 full games of action. Do fans really have faith that once the real games start Peterman will be good enough in 2018 to keep Allen on the bench because he has played well in 3 preseason games? Maybe, but if this team is 2-5 or 3-8 then calls for Allen are going to be loud. Allen is not going to sit for 2 years. Not with the investment it took to get him (Cordy Glenn, #12, #53 and #56).

Mango, I agree with this assessment. To me, its not a indictment of Beane's team building ability just yet, it's too early. Beane purged the roster of most Whaley staples - Dareus (1st Round), Watkins (1st Round), Ragland (2nd Round), Darby (2nd Round), Glenn (2nd Round), Tyrod (3 year starter). Regular football attrition has led to other loses - Preston Brown (3rd Round), Incognito (Pro Bowl with Bills), Wood (1st Round). That's a lot of talent to leave your organization, with their replacements being mostly spent to move up in the Draft to acquire Allen and Edmunds. Ultimately, Beane and McDermott made the Playoffs in 2017, and that buys them goodwill for 2018. But by 2019, Allen needs to be starting and the football team needs to be built around him. Better WRs are required, more options at Tight End, a real backup RB, a new LG, RG, RT, maybe LT? Kyle Williams is near the end, and though Harrison Phillips was drafted, there is nothing behind him as Washington is a fringe NFLer, and Lawson is a "guy" out there. 2017 - Pass for making Playoffs 2018 - Took their shot at QB 2019 - Team overall talent has to increase as Allen takes over

I think its likely that both sides are right. Peterman gets the start based on the QB competition, but he will either be injured behind this line or will throw too many interceptions, leading to a losing record. The calls for Allen will start again, we know Bills fans just swerve all over the road in regards to QB. The Bills are bound by Allen having to start in 2019. Nobody is giving a 7th overall pick that cost as much extra as Allen, more than one year sitting on the bench.

This is just people trying to be right. Week One of Preseason it was McCarron's job because he the steady veteran. He could execute the offense. And the Coaches agreed with that in their actions. McCarron got first team reps until he was injured. Peterman had not stood out in Training Camp, but he put up a high completion percentage in the Carolina game. Allen played to his Scouting Report, some flashes, some inaccurate throws. Week Two of Preseason, McCarron stunk up the joint (under heavy pressure) and Allen came in and "looked good". So then the narrative shifted to well we might as well start Allen and get the show on the road. Peterman got third string snaps, nobody was pushing for him. Week Three of Preseason, Allen looks terrible (under heavy pressure) and Peterman again moves the offense against the subs, and so now the narrative according to Bills fans is Peterman gives us the best chance to win. I think this is Bills fans reacting week to week. Swerving all over the road. Now we see threads that say Peterman was the plan the entire time. No he wasn't. Coaches gave Allen the first crack at first teams reps this week. He has outlasted McCarron (injured) and has the last best performance in a preseason game over Allen and so now Bills fans rush to Peterman is the answer. We don't want to "ruin" Allen. Peterman has played <2 real games and has 6 interceptions (5 in LA and immediately in the Jacksonville game). So my hunch is Peterman gets the start, like most fans want, and when this thing becomes a pop-gun offense after 3 weeks, the calls will start coming for Allen. Like sitting for 3 weeks was the ultimate learning difference.

I'm on the side of getting Allen in there right now. Waiting until the team is perfect is not realistic in my opinion. At the latest Allen has to be starting by 2019.

I think you're correct BADOLBILZ. McDermott gets a pass this year because of the Playoff push last year. Beane gets a pass in 2018 because he took his shot at QB and we need time to let that grow. So I think you're going to get more of 2017 in 2018. Dumping off, riding McCoy, punting and field position. But in 2019 Allen better be starting with new skill position players around him and a more aggressive offensive scheme. Because trading for a rocket armed QB at #7 doesn't make any sense if you aren't throwing +15 yard passes.

I think its fair to say that Rex and Whaley built a team that couldn't realistically be asked to win more than 10 games. I think its too early know anything about Beane and McDermott. I am most interested in what their real vision is on offense. McDermott has stood by the run the ball, control field position, it's cold in Buffalo. But they did draft Allen, in large part because he has a rocket arm. So what pieces are they going to add to that side of the ball. WR group is worse, Tight End is unchanged, Offensive Line is worse, RB is same. So if this year is just a punt year, then next offseason needs to be full-go on building offensive skill position and line for Allen, because he needs to be starting Year 2. And that we will need to see some kind of expansion of the offense. If next year comes and the plan is to still dump off, draw on 2nd and 30, and ride 31 year old McCoy to establish the physicality then my faith will plummet.

Okay, but this is based mostly on faith in McDermott and Beane over the Whaley and Rex. It's based on future cap space and what Allen could be, rather than actual players they have brought in. Is that fair to say?

Great correction Mango. I was wrong and wasn't thinking. Hyde and Poyer were 2017 Free Agent signings in March. Beane wasn't here. And I think its fair to say Bean has not made one move than clearly has upgraded this team over what it had, only his swings on Allen and Edmunds that we have to wait and see how it pans out.

I'm at it's too early. But no position group is better now than it was when Beane took over. With Allen on-board now, I want to see what offense Beane really crafts here. Because he can't think that running a 30 year old McCoy and throwing out routes to Benjamin is going to get this offense into the modern era.

Bills fans swerve all over the road. At first it was McCarron was the steady veteran to execute McDermott's offense. Last week it was Allen is playing just as good as anybody, might as well throw him out there. Now its Peterman has won the job, Allen is going to get killed. Nate Peterman has thrown 6 interceptions in <2 games when the real bullets are flying.

Mango, I did point out that White was drafted when Beane wasn't there. I too was okay with Watkins. I think its been 4 years and he has yet to have a season better than Steve Johnson. I think he's a 600-900 yard guy with 6 TDs, a #2 WR. I don't think he becomes the #1 in Kansas City. I think he is clearly behind Hill and Kelce for targets. We keep waiting for this Watkins explosion, and what you get is 2 catches, 32 yards, 0 TDs. It's clear that the best remaining players on this roster: McCoy, Hyde, Poyer, Alexander, White were all Whaley holdovers or not guys that Beane drafted. Really, he has brought in Kelvin Benjamin and Star L. Obviously his big swings so far are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. He had bad luck with Richie losing his mind and Wood having to retire. Other than that, the next best player he's brought in? Harrison Phillips?

Mango, you're right, my bad. Whaley was here until after the draft. Ok, with that said then Beane has not upgraded any area of this team.

To answer the question. Safety has been upgraded: Colt Anderson, Johnathon Meeks, Corey Graham and Rob Blanton to Hyde, Poyer and Bush. **Mango correctly pointed out that this was Whaley not Beane. Therefore, no credit here to Beane. Then you have to go position by position. QB - Hard to say that for 2018 we got better from Tyrod. Longterm its all on Allen. RB - No. We took McCoy, a Whaley holdover, and haven't added any other names other than Matt Murphy and Mike Tolbert. WR - Watkins, Woods, Goodwin to Benjamin, Jones and Streater? No upgrade here. Offensive Line - Is Dawkins better than Glenn? Unlikely. Then Incognito reverted back to what he was. Wood had to retire. They love Ducasse for some reason, John Miller is starting again, and they still can't find anyone better than Jordan Mills. Not upgraded. Tight End - Took a Whaley holdover, Charles Clay, and have done nothing but added street scrubs behind him. No upgrade. Defensive Line - It was Dareus, Williams, Hughes, Lawson. Now its Star L, Williams, I do like the Phillips pick, Hughes and Murphy. No upgrade. Linebackers - Was Alexander, Preston Brown, Zach Brown. Now its Alexander, Edmunds, Millano. I think that's a downgrade with no depth. Safety - Already covered, upgraded, but not by Beane. No upgrade. Cornerback - Was Gilmore, Darby, Coleman, now is White, Davis, Johnson, Gaines. Gilmore leaving, good riddance, the Darby trade was never a good one in my opinion, and I liked Coleman. They hit on White (although Beane wasn't here when he was drafted) and they got by last year with E.J. Gaines off the street. I'd say this is a push. I'd like this group if it was White and Darby. But without Darby, we're ok, but not better than average. No upgrade.

I'm not sure what I think about Beane, as my main issue is I don't see a coherent plan/vision yet (it's early), other than him and McDermott like character guys. In his time here, he's mostly purged Whaley's cornerstones (Cordy Glenn, Dareus, Preston Brown, Darby, Watkins, Ragland) and taken his shot this year at QB. But he has also done what Whaley did in the past, blow draft capital to move up and get specific guys they want. We spent a lot for Allen and Edmunds. I want to see what Beane really believes in. Does he really think that running the ball in snowy Buffalo is enough to win the Super Bowl? In two years he hasn't done anything to bolster the depth behind McCoy or Charles Clay. Last year Mike Tolbert was our only #2 running back. A 260-pound fullback. This year its Matt Murphy off the street. Is the plan really to ride McCoy until the wheels fall off? Similar approach at Tight End. Take a Whaley hold over, and have street free agents back him up. I still don't really understand what they want their offense to look like. After the Draft, Beane explained the Allen fascination by talking about how Cam Newton was the prototype of what they wanted their QB to be. Tall, strong arm. Like Whaley, never really mentioned how Allen actually throws a football with accuracy. I think this head in still in Carolina (saw a ton of Panthers FA/trades coming here last year). Is there more to this plan? Are we going to start getting WR's that can stretch the field? If not, why did we pay the premium to draft Allen? Why do you need a rocket arm? If the Coach believes that the run game is the rock on which the offense is to be built on, then why did we draft Allen? So in the coming year and Draft do the Bills build a modern dynamic offense? Or is their vision the same as Doug Marrone and Rex Ryan, field position, running and defense? Kelvin Benjamin is not a burner, he can't separate. How does Buffalo get out of 31st place in passing? Removing Tyrod and drafting Allen was Step One. Now is Beane going to get real WRs and Tight Ends to give Allen options, or are we going to ride LeSean McCoy again?

Easy to be happy and fun when your team is out there winning Super Bowls instead of being in the running for worst hockey team in the league 4 of the last 5 years and breaking down a football team that hasn’t won a Playoff game in 23 years.

Did Barry Switzer continue a great Cowboys culture in 1995, or did he just inherit HOFers Aikman, Smith, Irvin, Allen, Haley? Was it great culture that molded Favre into a winner, he didn’t even know what Nickle defense meant in 1993 under Holgrem. The hallowed Patriots were 5-11 under Belichick and 0-2 when Brady was forced into action. How did Belichick’s great culture work benching Malcom Butler? We can cherry pick all day. Doug Marrone brings NOTHING new to the table as a Coach. All Coaches talk about limiting turnovers, working hard, focusing on one practice at a time, and being on time for meetings. Everybody has a playbook and Coaches who spend 18 hours at the office. GMs have always mattered more than Coaches. They assemble the talent, they prioritize what holes to fill, they decide who to let walk away. I think winning is largely driven by talent. And a great culture is talked about after the fact. If you win, the stories about great culture are attributed to that. If you lose, it’s bad culture. The Browns have sucked not because Mike Pettine and Rob Chudsinky were outmatched schemically or bad leaders, but because they traded down when they could have had Julio Jones, drafted Weeden, Trent Richardson, Manziel, Barkavious Mingo. Funny how he went to New England and couldn’t be saved by Almighty Belichick. Funny how Justin Gilbert couldn’t be saved by the righteous Rooney family. Coaching does matter, but it’s dwarfed by talent, and culture is written about after the fact by fans/media good or bad.

Doug Marrone is not a great coach who establishes culture. He is ultra conservative and cost the Jaguars a trip to the Super Bowl. Doug Peterson said in an interview that he watched Jacksonville go into a shell in the 4th quarter against New England trying to play safe and vowed to not commit the same mistake. Doug Marrone is the Coach here who punted on the 4th-2, down by 2 scores, in the 4th quarter at the Pittsburgh 36 to protect field position. Jacksonville is good now because they stunk for so long they’ve accumulated young talented players high in the draft. Jack, Founette, Fowler, Jalen Ramsey, Yannick Ngakoue, Telvin Smith instead of draft busts Luke Joeckel.

Schopp is right. How team many players have we had over the years? Fred Jackson, Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, George Wilson, Lorenzo Alexander, Ryan Fitzpatrick? And how many Coaches over that same span talked about working hard, correcting mistakes, earning the right to win? Jauron, Gailey, Marrone. When the 49ers got really good 5 years ago and started to slide backwards what caused that? A big part was Justin Smith and Patrick Willis retiring, Aldon Smith getting suspended, Navarro Bowman hurting his knee, Mike Iupati moving on and Kaepernick regressing. How did the Seahawks get good? Elite culture or the fact they stacked three great drafts together? Wilson, Wagner, Thomas, Sherman, Chancellor, KJ Wright, with Mike Bennett added in FA. Stealing Marshawn Lynch away in his prime from a clueless GM. Remember Trent Edwards broken record of watching tape and fixing mistakes? He was working real hard too... Guess what? It’s talent guys. It’s picking Torrell Troup over Rob Gronkowski. It’s picking Sammy Watkins over Khalil Mack, picking TJ Graham instead of Russell Wilson. How about all the Bills drafts that yielded nothing? 2005, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, Ragland, Lawson. Get better players and suddenly Coaches will look a lot better. The 1988-1993 Bills proved that.

Howard Simon just rolls out of bed in the morning and goes on the air. I don’t think he says anything interesting. He doesn’t sound like a guy who does much of anything outside work. Jeremy White has pushed interesting narratives from time to time, challenged how conventional coaches are in football and hockey. He has understood how poor our QB play has been, how conservative our offenses have been. But this summer it has become a constant dialogue about his golf game. John Murphy, no interest at all. He’s a mouthpiece for the Bills. Schopp is by far the best host for trying to riddle out and test the logic of the Bills and Sabres Front Office decisions. He doesn’t forget things the Bills have said in the past and the shotgun/scattered/late to the party directions they go as a team. Chris Parker - a lot like Howard Simon. Been in Buffalo forever, but really is only able to take the talking points/structure Schopp provides and speak on it. Sal C, a non-stop motor mouth. A common fan who thinks and acts like he is an NFL insider. Anytime he can work in that he lived in Florida he does. He talks down to callers just as much as Schopp and White. “I will tell you ....”, “let’s go back to Coach McDermott said a year ago.....”

I like Schopp. The day he talked about how overrated culture is is an example of an interesting topic that nobody else at that station would think of. Nothing wrong or inaccuate about what he said there if you don’t have rose colored glasses on. Sal C is the worst. He’s a Bills homer who never calls out bad decisions of the past. Talk about a guy who talks down to the fans.

Yes. It started immediately when Roger Goodell took over. Ive grown out of wanting to attending games (money, weather, fans) but really it comes down to a few factors: 1. The constant rule changes have eroded my interest like NASCAR. The rules they add are increasingly subjective. Refs don’t call what they see, they can be talked into throwing flags by players motioning several seconds after the play ended. 2. The amount of commercials 3. Media spends more time on off the field incidents than the football itself. That started when they were breaking down Cam’s dab dance and RGIII’s socks. Constantly talking about “distractions”. 4. Instant replay 5. The Bills have been horrible since 2000 and watching the Patriots go every other year since then. 6. The hype. Constant slow-mo montages with rap music banging in the background. Maybe this gets some fans hyped, it’s not exciting for me, just get on with it. 7. One more thing I thought of and have become more attuned to - when media and footballers talk down to the fans. They’ll say things like “what most fans don’t realize is” or “what people have to understand is” or “the NFL is a business” like we’ve never watched the game. Overall I enjoy the off-season more. Free agency and the draft. Team building and how GMs think is more interesting than the actual games.