Rochesterfan

Because he has just been trolling right along - both in the other threads and now. Trolling

I think hand strength would not be something overly important myself. If you were going to measure it - get a regulation sized football with sensors and measure the pressure as the actually are passing the ball. The issue I have with hand strength is if you have smaller hands, but strong grip strength - it can actually lead to the ball coming if the football is hard and slick whereas a guy with bigger hands could still control the football. Hand size is considered important not because of fumbles, but because larger hands allow better control and accuracy in passing. The QB rarely if ever would exert full pressure on the ball.

This draft was done with no trades - so I think it is pretty inaccurate - I believe there will be several spots to move up and I would be shocked if there is not at least on trade someplace in the top 10. I don’t know how things will go for the top picks, but I think this is about as lazy of a mock draft as any site puts out.

Flacco is another interesting name because he was a rookie of the year, a Super Bowl MVP, holds a bunch of Baltimore and a few NFL records for regular and post season play, but does not fit the criteria due to a lack of ProBowls. The ProBowl piece is the part that is hard to guesstimate in this as it is such a popularity contest over meaning something. It is just fascinating to me.

Based on you definition- I think at least 3 or 4 - so I will go with 3. At least 2 of the top 4 guys and one additional from the lower ranks. I mean guys like Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub fit that criteria. Heck TT is close with 1 PB and a 3 year starter in Buffalo. Even Vince Young is a multi time ProBowler that played 5 seasons for Tennessee. Interestingly (at least to me) Matt Stafford does not fit this criteria as he has only 1 ProBowl I believe. I think there are at least 3 guys easily that can hit this especially as several guys that go yearly - Brady, Brees, Manning are on the way out. It would not shock me if 5 guys ended up fitting this description from this draft.

Agreed - I mean look at the drop Garrett had last year when it came out he was interested in dinosaurs and may want to go back to school and study paleontology. Many of these kids have goals and interests outside of football - the key is talking and understanding those goals and how to obtain them while still giving the all for the team. I think McDermott is really good at that because he actually seems to care about the players and wants to connect.

See but here here is the issue - most of the guys you mention do not fall into you original question - so I stand by the fact that you have trouble defying your parameters and sticking to it. The original question you asked was projects, from small schools, drafted in the top 10, since 1979 were successful? So that gives you guys like: Carson Wentz Blake Bortles Alex Smith Philip Rivers Byron Leftwich David Carr since 2000 as potential fits for you and even then some are from smaller sized D1 schools and some were not projects in the same regard, and some the jury is still out on. If Allen hits this group - your success rate is pretty good, you chance to be an average QB is pretty good, and your bust rate is fairly low. Now to try and get across the point you were trying to make which is you do not like Allen and you think he will bust - you expand it and start adding guys later in the draft or guys from bigger main D1 schools, or other projects to find a pool that fits what you want. In the end - just like most of your arguments - step away from the small picture and look at the overall. The bust rates an QBs and draft position have been given many times - each player is unique and instead of trying to find his pool and decide that understand there is bust potential and franchise level play in all of these round 1 QBs - where they go - the teaching they get - the offense they run - the Offensive consistency they have - will all factor into whether they succeed or fail. I do not disagree with your conclusions- it is just your method of trying to find and fit him into a group that is the problem and then expanded the group to include guys like Tannehill, Cutler, Locker, but questioning better fits like Big Ben or Flacco is just strange. I mean when you expand it why not include Eli Manning or Stafford or Aaron Rodgers - all went to Div 1 schools, but all needed work coming out. A guy like Rodgers fell to mid 20s - a perfect example of a developmental QB that is a success.

Agreed - hard to look at the percentages and gain anything meaningful when the hits and misses are all over the place.

They have been doing this dance fo years and as usually it comes down to communication and definition of what they are looking for: we have seen what is the middle of the field arguments - where you break that down, deep middle versus middle versus passes just across the line of scrimmage, accuracy and and ability to run after catch, now QBs that fit a certain profile. Based on What Transplant originally asked - I think Thurm better understood the question than Transplant who actually asked it, but they will eventually agree to disagree an it will come up again. Ahhhhh Good Times.

Agreed - that is why according to many analysts- Mahomes would be the 6th or 7th QB taken behind guys like Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, and with Rudolph and Jackson. I think Mahomes rocket up the boards last year would have been de-railed by Allen who has the stronger arm and many of the same flaws.

I have - I think Reid is the better HC and Mahomes a better prospect, but look at what Buffalo did to try and prop up EJ. 2 first round picks for Watkins - that didn’t scream all in? The Chiefs have added some weapons, but their defense is not as good - so look for them to try and win shoot outs - which opens Mahomes up to more turn overs.

Yeah because teams never get rid of Veterans for the promising rookie/1st year player and then see that player fail. I mean just looking at the Bills - they didn’t get rid of Bledsoe to allow JP to start or Fitzpatrick to move on to EJ or anything. It happens that teams move on from Veterans to save money and assume the young QB will be ok. I think Mahomes will be average, but I think they overall will not be as good without the veteran leadership. Mahomes screams average. Many great plays and many bonehead throws for turnovers. Of of course they are all in - just as Whaley was all in on EJ until he wasn’t - it cost the Bills coaching staff and was consuming of a ton of effort until finally a HC took over with more power. KC will suffer only because the HC made this choice with his power and then de facto took over as GM as they moved Dorsey out. Reid is all in because he has no choice - this is his guy.

Please show me this report- Repeatedly I have heard about trading with Houston, but everything I have seen has said Houston was not interested until after another QB was taken. They felt either or both Mahomes or Watson would be available at their pick - not sure they really needed to trade up.

What are are you even saying - none of this years guys have been drafted yet and all we have to compare is where they were slated to go compared to this years guys. Mahomes was projected to go about like Rudolph - late first, but a team that wanted a big strong QB with potential decided they would take the risk. If he and Allen were both there - I think KC chooses Allen all day and Mahomes would drop, but isn’t that the point of your OP or are you just trying to troll here.

I don’t believe that was an option at the time. Houston figured the QBs would drop and they wouldn’t have to move. The KC move is what forced the Houston trade. We saw this question by Zerovoltz just a week or so ago. I think Mahomes is a lesser Allen and I would have him after Jackson and Rudolph. Watson I thought would be right in the group with Turbisky and just in front of Mahomes/Jackson/Rudolph. Without the NFL year to go on I would rank them: Darnold/Rosen/Mayfield - Top 5 Allen/Turbisky/Watson - Top 10-15 Jackson/Rudolph/Mahomes - Late 1st/Early second I think even at 22 we will be able to get a QB as good as Mahomes, but if you can get a top 3 guy - you blow the doors off last year.

I fully agree and think point 2 is huge and something I have been saying for awhile. Dorsey wanted to pick his coach, but Haslam opened his mouth and boxed them in. I don’t think it matters to much how they do - I think Hue is gone as soon as Dorsey can drop him. It makes things very interesting as typically at this point the #1 pick is all but settled and that would allow teams to focus on #2, but this year it seems the Browns don’t know what they are doing and therefore everyone else has been stuck in wait and see mode.

I believe like most teams they have them ranked and all players for that matter. They have an assigned value to each and it may match some of our opinions and it may not. They for example may be willing to move up to 2 for only 1 QB (make your pick), but if that player goes #1 the move up to 2 is not worth it in their eyes. They then start looking at maybe 5-7 for that 3rd or 4th guy or maybe they think that value is closer to 12 and don’t make a trade. They may also think that any of 3or 4 guys in the late first or early second round is just about on par with QB #4 and therefore wait a bit. The thing is we have no idea and no good way to find ou the truth (even after the fact) - you are going to hear how they got their guy - even if it is a 4th rounder that slipped. We will learn a lot more on draft night, but until then we can only guess based upon what we see with these QBs.

This is complete Bull and makes no sense. The Rams had to trade for most all of their acquisitions this year - none went there willingly - Suh finally agreed on a 1 year deal when everything else was gone. They lost several big name FA to lesser places like KC. Cleveland signed more FA than just about anyone - are they the big draw? Buffalo was a destination when when they were good and became barren when they were bad - just like everyone else. Heck NYJ with a ton of money and a so called destination city has not been able to draw, but GB and KC have done just fine getting FA as needed. Players look at situation as much or more than final destination- it will factor for some FA, but most want to go to a good team and have a defined role and get paid. Then other factors come into play.

This is is exactly what I was talking about and your whole post is correct, but I want to focus on the little bit I left in. When reviewed by itself the overall results for most of these exams show definite racial and cultural bias. As you bring in socioeconomic comparators - the bias lessens when comparing across race and culture. I think that if everyone believes the NFL uses this as a measurement of intelligence - I think that is wrong. I think they use it as a pressure gauge and a preparation monitor more now because so many rookies go through prep classes - it let’s you know if they are putting in the time. A low score is still a flag for many of these guys, but not as much as years ago before everyone had prep access.

There are multiple issues that make both sides correct on this issue. The questions themselves are not necessarily racially biased, but if you look at these types of tests and you break down results on racial and cultural lines - you do find significant differences across races and cultures. Enough of a difference that it is considered statistically biased. If you dig deeper and break races and cultures across socioeconomic and educational lines - you find that the racial and cultural biases begin to disappear and that Black, White, Asian, Latino, etc. with similar backgrounds and similar upbringings should do somewhat similar. There are still some differences seen, but typically they fall within the margins of error of the data set. Why you see the initial racial and cultural biases is due to where the majority of the people with that race or class fall - it is due to a statistical difference that causes a perceived bias. In this case, you have players of different social classes, but at this point similar educational levels - all have supposedly completed High School and taken several years of college classes to provide a more level playing field. It is not perfect, but it should provide the GMs information on processing speed and ability. The thing that ruins it as a tool is that anyone with knowledge of the process can prepare and basically get into an acceptable range even if they lack proper knowledge. The more prep classes these kids take the more the combine becomes a useless tool to differentiate players. You can see it even on this board - people take it once or twice like a normal test and score 12-15 because they are trying to get everything right, not fast. A few pointers later and they are busting 20 and even 30 - did they get smarter - nope they learned how to take this particular test. What Jackson’s score does for me - is not show if he is smart or not smart, but that he was ill prepared and that is unacceptable for a QB from a D1 school that puts players into the pro’s all the time. If this was a small D3 player from a school that rarely puts people into the combine then maybe you can excuse it as the coach and player may not have the correct contacts to prepare, but from Jackson and Louisville- it is bad. This then gets mixed with reports that Jackson struggled on the white board with several teams and he did not look particularly sharp either at the combine or his Pro Day and it opens up questions. This is where having the experienced agent could have helped. Jackson should have been better prepared for the combine and put together a better fitting Pro Day and then even if he had struggled - the agent would be leaking info about someone like Cleveland at 4 or Denver interviewing Jackson and pushing some positive info to prevent a fall due to mostly bad press.

Typically an agent will 1st and foremost give him insight into what to expect for both a pro day and the combine and get you tips and pointers on how to be successful. That kind of advice could be invaluable throughout this process and for talented players near the top of the draft - that kind of advice could mean millions of dollars based on draft number rather than negotiating. So he may save a bit of money because of no agent- 3-5%, but if he drops from 12 to late 1st or 2nd round because of the lack o knowledge and prep time - he loses money in the long run. I do no have an issue using his mom as a manager or agent, but then they needed to hire a prep team to get him through this time of year. His lack of preparation for the combine and his average Pro Day combined with teams having difficulties lining up interview and meeting times throw up red flags that will ultimately cost him. Now if that is his plan and he would prefer certain teams later in the first round - then so be it, but If his goal is to get drafted high - he is going about it wrong. A guy like Darnold not only has an agent to schedule everything - they paid to get an outside team to run his ProDay based upon the skills he wanted to show and what worked best. He scripted and planned everything to make himself look the best he could and he was already slated to g top 3. Contrast that to Jackson - who with poor planning struggled with the wonderlic and did not run a 40 time, then has a Pro Day that was average - nothing special that highlighted his abilities, and now the teams are struggling to get in meetings and it has been reported that some teams are not going to meet with him because timing is so tight and he is not putting together a schedule that works. Most of this would have been controlled by an agent or manager with experience with this time of year and he would have come off so much better.

Agreed - if he put up a great 40 time as he probably would have - it would add to the fire to move him from QB to WR. Nearly all QBs take the wonderlic test. It has become mostly useless in the last 15 years because of prep classes, but the GMs know who is taking the classes and who is not - so in Jackson’s case a lower score is seen as a bad sign. It may be considered equivalent to a 20 on a guy that took prep classes. The GMs use and understand the numbers just as they do for the other combine events. The prep classes have made some workout warriors by teaching techniques to improve 40 times, leaping ability, bench pressing, and various shuttle times. You have to take it all into account because even that can show things like teach ability and attention to detail. I think the wonderlic score hurts, but it will also compare to how he handled the boards at the team meetings.

Exactly and treatment has been very rough.

Langston Walker - tackle from the Raiders - an equally bad deal to Dockery in my opinion.

Your loss Peterman. Nice read Bad - reminds me of some of Shaw’s olds posts in the burglar days. I understand and hope it means something - probably won’t, but a connection made is a connection and not that you need a reason to be a fan - it just helps when it feels right. Me too Beast - me too.