wilcoam

Again, I love Moneyball, and I;d happily support our Bills doing this However in the NFL the easiest way to acquire great talent at minimal cost, and a fixed cost, is the draft So our Bills are doing a poor job of Moneyball First this regime keep trading em away, not acquiring extra's And then we are not getting enough ree comp picks So the lack of draft and comp picks means you have to fill the roster with players that cost you more than draft pick salaries That's the opposite of moneyball jc

Reddick, like Howard, may be the fastest rising player in the draft over the last 3 weeks If he's that good I hope he is in the mix at #10 However I would not even rule out the dropping Allen, whom could be a steal at #10 DT, OLB, S, CB, WR, whatever, just go get a great player jc

Dragon is correct that if no QB goes in the top 9, it unfort leaves less top tier rookies for us to pick from, so no way Adams and Hooker will be at #10, and Howard and Williams could be gone as well Do the math, I'm thinking Myles, Solomon, Adams, Hooker, Lattimore, Fournette, Williams, Howard, Foster, but I'm just guessing.... It may only leave us with Davis, a dropping Allen, a rising Peppers, 4 zillion CB's, all the QB's, and the biggest rising player, Reddick Take your choice but my bet is on a defensive player Though I'd be beyond elated jumping for joy if its Williams or Davis Those are players opposing teams will be forced to game plan for Ditto if we grab a lower rated WR prospect in the 2nd or 3rd Just go get one As fans we deserve to be able to watch better legit NFL starting offensive talent on our team Sunday's jc

I don't disagree with you Augie, though I have equal concerns over the current safety situation, fyi we just spent a 2nd round draft pick on a LB which included trading away two other 4th round draft picks to get him, so if he isn't that stud LB you're looking for, then we just wasted a 2nd round pick, not to mention two other 4th rounders , without achieving butkus For those still not counting that's 3 draft picks we traded for the right to have Ragland a year later, the guy better be beyond studiedly, lol, or it'll go down as one of the worst trades DW made jc

All for Williams/Davis in the first, or Zay/Ross in the 2nd, and or Goodwin/Schuster/Krupp in the 3rd, or whomever The WR talent on our team presently is laughable so I'd love to see us pull a Texans And grabbing two young high ceiling potential WR's this year However all the mocks I read says Chris is more a 3rd round pick but that's bound to change over and over again in the next month So if he is there in the 2nd and worth it I hope we land him jc

Great thread - Amazing post - I concur 100% All I keep reading, on just about every thread on every single FA pickup, is how its such a strong signing, and DW is a terrific GM, and how he keeps finding diamonds in the rough, etc, ad naseum, and how incredible this off season is, etc However the real truth is so far its an off season where we lost more high profile talent than we have gained, and for every good signing DW might make, and he's absolutely made some in the past, there's 2 to 3 that equally bust, fans just like to focus on the one's that are successful, like Lorax, and completely forgot about all the CB's and S's that failed for us last year, and the countless WR's that didn't produce The other real truth is that DW is not a terrific GM, worthy of these message board accolades, where folks are ready to put his tie and jacket on the stadium wall, he at best a mediocre manager, who has yet to produce a single winning season in the the NFL, so in actuality all these signings cannot possibly be all solid one's, for if they all were, we'd have won, at least once, 10-12 plus games a season during his tenure That's not saying DW doesn't have the potential to build a successful 53 man roster, and or maybe this years moves will result in a 10+ win season, but there's no track record of date to suggest this will happen other than blind faith that a coaching change, with a rookie NFL HC will yield better results So I get that your atypical fan wants to build up, and cheer wildly, on every single FA move, and I get that fans automatically love new players who become Buffalo Bills, for awhile they can do no wrong, our HC talks em up, its called potential, and off season hype, even if the said player hasn't played much the last couple of years, were never a legit NFL starter, have awful PFF ratings, and were not coveted by their former teams, lol And I get an equally huge thrill when we go out and bring in a Lorax, and or Zack, or other dumpster dive backup over achieves while in a Bills uni, that was some year Spikes had, but at the same time I think fans forget that the only team objective is, to win 10 games plus, not to have a couple of FA's over achieve, in this regard, it would nice to see a little more honesty here, and admit, all these unbelievable off season FA signings, don't point to our Bills winning more than 8 games this season, and In that context, I'm not sure how the totality of these incredible roster moves are really all that good if it does not result in winning any more games than the previous season, and playoff berth Plus Thurman is bang on when he bring up that the totality of these off season moves resulted in losing two high draft picks the NFL was ready to compensate us for losing Gilmore and Woods, look, if we win 11 games this year, even I won't care, but if we only win 7, you might as well as punched us in the gut, to know we could have had a 3rd and 4th rounder in 2018, but gave it up, so we could fill a roster in 2017 with a bunch of depth players, why? I think we all want to see our team finally be successful, and I'm not saying a dumpster dive off season like signing like Poyer might not pan out, maybe he will, but the reality is, they all won't pan out, despite the message board hype, and if the end we don;t win 10 games, then DW didn't actually do a good job, he just redelivered mediocrity, that folks jumped with joy with as it unfolded Sorry for the brutal honestly, but it is food for thought... jc

I thought so I had a good laugh considering Humber as our starting OLB Message board talk aside I see no reason why OLB and DT will not be on the Bills draft radar Yes, we have bodies, but you're not just looking at 2017 need, but 2017-2022 and beyond When Lorenzo and Kyle will likely be retired jc

I've never said we had to draft Williams or Davis to have a relevant WR corps, there are WR's equally available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds this year that could be just as good as Woods, or better, in fact I fully expect our #10, if we did not trade out, will be used on defense However if Sean, DW, or Pegs, are going into the 2017 season without a plan to draft young potential WR's, and or TE's, with the idea of maybe using Clay more in the slot, because they 'think' they have a legit #2 already on the team, they are shortchanging the franchise, and us fans No more or less than the horrific mgmt moves that left us terribly lacking in depth and talent at QB and WR the past couple of years, which cost us games, and cost us playoff berths, amongst all the other reasons, etc Just saying... jc

If McDermott honestly believes there is a legitimate #2 WR on this team then the Pegulas should start looking for the next coach right away. Hopefully it's a smokescreen for the draft/trades/etc. I concur 100%, IMO we not only don't have a legit WR#2 currently on the roster, we also don't have a legit WR#3, IMO HC Sean needs new eyeglasses, at least in terms of his WR evaluation, but I also think its simply a smokescreen jc

Scott Law, once again, makes alot of sense All I know is if our Bills were winning none of these threads about whose in charge and who has more power would be active Non one would care because we'd all be taking about whether we'll be winning 10, 11, 12, or 13 games And whom we might be meeting in the playoffs And as long as we keep losing these threads will continue endlessly jc

Good effort However neither RT, CB#2, S#1, S2, and WR#3 are proven quality NFL starters I'm sure one, maybe two elevate their game, but just as easily none may The same could be said for Shaq and Ragland but we all have high hopes I won't comment on the first rounder Williams and send rounder Jones being able to step right in Gonna be a loooooong season jc

I have a better idea that just bringing in more talent Maybe they start a message board to engage fans Just kidding.... jc

The continually trading down idea is interesting but IMO the idea of a trade down is you end up drafting the same player you would at #10 that you can get at #15 or #22, plus you get an extra high pick For example some mock drafts have Wiliams going between #5-10, and others say he will go #22-30, if our Bills really want him at WR, which I personally love, and he's still there at #10, you think maybe we trade down, still get him at #22, and you get a free 2nd round pick as well, that's pretty tasty The problem with continually trading down is that you don't get Williams, you have to settle for a lower rated WR, so while you gain multiple picks, you do miss out on some higher quality players I see Allen is 'dropping' from #3-4 to #12 because of a shoulder situation, not as bad a Shaq, but still disconcerning, but wow, whomever gets him at #12 is getting a top 3 pick alot lower, similar to Sidney Jones, but still a much higher rated prospect I drool at the idea of Allen and Darius in the middle, and Kyle rotating with Shaq and Hughes on the outside, and Washington as the backup, that's a formidable front 4, with 6 solid players, at least on paper, but I'm good with whomever we take at #10, or in a trade down, which I think is the best case scenario long term for building this team, more high picks the next two years, the better could be in 2018 and 2019 jc

Sorry, I disagree, the majority of QB's drafted, play the role of a backup QB, so signing one in FA, especially a high profile one like a Doug Flutie and or a Fitz, is very much the same thing as drafting a Cardale Jones, or a Hackenberg So is trading a first round draft pick for a QB as we did with Bledsoe and or Johnson, which the OP didn't mention, sorry but this thread as it evolved debunked the idea our Bills have not focused on the QB position, they have, in their own way, but folks will continue to claim otherwise if it suits their agenda jc

This thread/topic comes up every year at exactly 3-4 weeks b4 the draft, and there's a point to be made, but its misleading Because as other have pointed out if you trade a first round draft pick for a Bledsoe and or Johnson its the same thing as drafting Ditto singing a QB as a FA such as Fitz or TT So with the excellent info provided after, in fact our Bills have used picks, trades, FA signings of QB's no more or less than other teams The idea that our Bills don't bring in new QB's has been essentially debunked As for the idea of using a draft pick every year until you hit, I've always thought this idea was beyond silly, because while you are continuously drafting QB's, all the other teams you compete against are using their picks to build much stronger rosters Lets take a look between the Jets and the Steelers, Pitt has only used one pick on a QB in the Ben years, a 4th rounder in Landry, while the Jets use a high pick virtual every 2nd year, no wonder the Steelers are continually building a better roster Just saying.... jc

Good thread, It makes too much sense, his age aside, he gets credit for being NE's best lineman in 2015 Unfort he didn't play a down last year However if he's healthy again he would be a humungous upgrade over Mills But it does not look like our Bills are specifically targeting starting players in FA, lol, let alone older veterans jc

Sorry Robot, but I'm not sure you can say the moves our Bills are making this off season are 'smart' Smart to me means signing players that get you those 2-3 extra wins than you got last season and actual playoff contenders not pretenders So if we win 10 games plus this season I'll grant you that these moves were smart, and quite successful If we only win 6-8, I;m not sure how you apply that word to the totality of the moves Middling, mediocre, sideways, IMO would apply more than 'smart' I mean looking back at all our moves this time last year, we're they really 'smart' they sure as hell were not successful Just saying... jc

Well stated Thurman#1, I concur 100% You know it's the same situation as the discussion this exact time last year about what if Rex could not deliver 10 wins + or the playoffs in 2016 Lots of folks continually argued for continuity regardless of his W-L record I didn't, and I said, in the NFL if you can't deliver wins, and successful seasons, you don't stay employed Rex didn't deliver, and he was rightfully terminated The same applies to DW, enough of the same violenesque Rex-cuses, either deliver us winning football, or hopefully Pegs terminates you Enough of the mediocrity jc

Why bother looking at the list of decent starting #2 and #3 WR's Its not like DW is talking to any WR that caught more than 24 balls in 2016. lol jc

Our off season moves the last two seasons since the high profile 2015 FA suggest our new approach to FA is to find depth back up players on other teams that might become starters or might blossom in their 4th to 7th years in the league, we very rarely sign any older vets, though Lorax doesn't fit that pattern I'm not sure that's moneyball, but it's a pattern, if one was using a moneyball approach, you would not sign a mostly backup safety who has only started 6 NFL games to an over 3M contract, or a starting nickleback to over 6M, lol, those are not cautious conservative moneyball type FA signings A Moneyball approach would entail acquiring more draft picks so you can have a larger percentage off the 53 roster in low level fixed rookie contracts, and or you would rarely sign your own impending FA's, you would keep trading them for more draft picks, ala NE, plus you would only sign very in-expensive FA's, our Bills are doing neither... jc

Sorry, you don't keep a GM, because he made some nice trades, drafted some pro bowlers, and signed some nice FA's You keep him because he puts together a 53 person unit that wins 10 games plus, if not consistently, at least often Or he has the potential to win 10 games plus consistantly All the criticism towards DW is because we don't win, cos if we did, or had, none of these threads would exist Sully would not by writing these kind of negative articles Again tell me we;'re gonna win 10-11 games this year and I'll say DW is the guy for this team Sully might too And I'll stop critiquing DW's dreadful off season dumpster dive moves But we look like a 7-8 win team again so there;s nothing to celebrate here, except continued mediocirty For if we looked like a 10-11 team season Sully;s articles would likely be beaming and very positive And perhaps less drama fueled and more factual jc

Nobody said DW sucked We are saying he hasn't produced winning and successful football in Buffalo No question he has delivered a top 10 D and some top 10 O's However if that's the height of his success we best move on because in the NFL that's not good enough Now to the future, if you think DW has assembled a min 10-11 win season this off season year then yes we'd be dumb to let him go Has he? If not, we really should get another GM, one who can assemble a 10-11 win team for 2018 and beyond I'm tired of celebrating DW's genius 7-8 wins seasons and brilliant off season moves that lead to continuous 7-8 win seasons lol jc

I think its silly for fans to get caught up defending or continually critiquing one or a couple of moves made by DW in his tenure with our Bills A GM makes so many roster moves, drafts so many players, makes so many trades, just one move, or series of, does not define him Its the totality off all the moves that counts, which is a matter of record, fact, in terms of wins and losses, on the field In that regard Sully is bang on DW has yet to build a 53 person roster that has been successful However even Sully would make a better point if he stopped wallowing in gossip and was less obsessed about press conferences His article would bring it home clearer if he just stuck to the facts That we don't have winning football in Buffalo That DW has traded too may draft picks, instead of acquiring more Instead taking comp picks signing too many bit depth players That he hasn't re-signed enough of our FA draft picks That he signs and overpays for too many depth dumpster diving players, exception the 2015 off season That DW is to blame for a serious lack of depth at both QB and WR the last couple seasons You can then still disagree with Sully But Sully would be backed by the simple fact of our win0-loss record in comparison to most other more successful NFL teams I think DW has to go as well But unlike Sully my reasons are more fact based, way less emotional, and not mired in gossip and innuendo jc

I agree Kirby, without HC Sean telling us who our potential starters are, its even harder to get a read on needs at the draft because if Lorax isn't a starter, yes, we have a gapping hole at OLB, and the same can be said about Seymour and CB It gets even more confusing, re Hyde & Poyer - Hyde is getting a whopping 6M a year, and I can't tell if he's a starting S, a starting CB, or the starting nickel back in a 65% mostly nickel formation - I will tell you his role in GB was mostly nickel CB, not a starting S/C Hoyer is also getting 3M a year, for a guy, with even less starting exp than Hyde, just 6 games over 4 years, he's getting starter $$$, but its not a given that he's an NFL ready starter, or if he is that he will be considered one this time next year, lol To ease my mind Hyde is the nickel guy, and Seymour is still depth, so we are still looking for a #2 starting Corner, and Poyer is the SS, we are still looking for a starting FS in the draft, you add that to WR2, these are your primary starting holes, but some will add QB, RT, WR#3, and OLB to the mix, plus I think our Bills are looking at DT as well projecting into the future So many holes, trading down, and or acquiring additional draft picks is IMO the best way forward, plus acquiring comp picks when we don't lose high profile FA's and don't replace them with equal high profile FA's acquisitions, the strategy of trading up has to end, not only is it not working in terms of short terms wins and loses, but the combo of giving up draft picks and losing FA's is making it hard to build long term jc

Hurricane is right, there's no point drudging up the past, or being fixated on one trade, one draft, or one selection in the draft Its about winning games, making the playoffs, and a whole body of work in building the best 53 person team year in and year out So if DW can build a perennial playoff team here, from this point forward, great he's the guy And if he can't they outta bring in someone else who can The big question is, how many years, will they give him to succeed? I like DW, I think he's done a decent job upgrading the talent, from where we were in 2011, 2013, etc But its still not good enough, unfort he hasn't succeeded, on the field, where it counts And 2017 so far isn't looking a potential 10-11 win season If I'm the Pegs, I'm giving him this year, and then moving on if there is not progress... jc