transplantbillsfan

Me too!!! What the hell man?!?!?! We gotta deal with yet ANOTHER offseason of Brady talk with him winning the SB???? SUCKS!!! Most fun Bills season in decades!!!! Just gotta wait for more...

Exactly. I don't know why @GunnerBill seems to be so offended by something pretty widely acknowledged.

@GunnerBill watch this if you think the whole being a farmboy didn't matter in terms of work ethic... you don't even have to watch past 2 minutes before Josh and his mom bring up how that farmer work ethic was instilled in him and how much it mattered: You might not believe that the farming lifestyle lends itself to a strong work ethic, but you should probably keep that to yourself if you're talking to a farmer.

"Josh would have never said what Mahomes said." That's all you really needed to say.

The "farmer's work ethic" (which is a real thing) is evident in Josh Allen. The "pro athlete's sense of entitlement" (also a real thing) is starting to show its ugly head in Patrick Mahomes. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's just pure coincidence that Josh Allen has that farmer's humility and work ethic and Patrick Mahomes is showing signs of that entitlement. We're seeing it, nonetheless.

Except it's not... and clearly you just don't have any way to reasonably argue that it is.

Automatically? No. But it certainly lends itself to work ethic and there's a reason the cliché exists. Should we get into a nature vs. nurture argument at this point? You seem to believe that I think it's ALL nurture, but I don't. It's a mix of both, obviously. Brady has a bunch of his work ethic just naturally in him and a bunch of it also from being raised right by his parents. You don't HAVE to be a farmer in order to have a great work ethic, obviously. Now you're the one being disingenuous and silly pretending that's what I meant. But the profession and lifestyle of a farmer (and almost inevitable familial cooperation in the profession) lends itself to instilling a work ethic and strong sense of humility more than most professions. But I'm not saying ALL farmers have a better work ethic than... say... a professional athlete's son And I'm not saying ALL professional athletes' kids are more entitled than... say... a farmer. But you can certainly see the farmer work ethic in Josh Allen and the entitled diva in Patrick Mahomes starting to show up at this point.

Work ethic has nothing and relationship building and trust of teammates have nothing to do with a QB's success? Is that what you're saying?

Wiggling out of this so easily? The Allen vs. Mahomes debate is gonna continue for their entire careers, thanks in no small part to people like you, who saw Mahomes as great and a team that passed on taking Mahomes the year you did to trade down. Mahomes is great Now it's clear Allen is great I think we got the better end of the deal. After seeing the way your guy threw some of his teammates under the bus after the SB loss vs. Allen walking literally from teammate to teammate offensively, I would rather have Josh Allen over Patrick Mahomes at this point. It's starting to look like Mahomes has a bit of a diva in him and that should make you worry a little, despite the fact that he's generationally talented. Josh Allen, on the other hand, has farming in his background. My Grandfather was a farmer. I understand what that instills in you even if it's not in me. But in the end, you're right: Super Bowls are what matter. Well... watch out... we just made it to the AFC Championship only to get embarrassed by you. But QB is the most important position for winning the Super Bowl and Josh Allen has gotten better by leaps and bounds every single year as an NFL starting QB. 2021 and beyond... what dreams may come...

A "McKenzie-like-player" is an integral cog in Daboll's offense. In fact, I was pretty baffled as we ended the year and no longer had him running those motion sweeps consistently... so maybe I should have said "was an integral cog..." Maybe abandoning that was a bad idea. Keep McKenzie as that guy on offense and as the punt and kick returner. Let the overpaid Andre Roberts walk. I imagine McKenzie is cheaper than Roberts, anyway.

Wow. I can't think of a single time Josh has made any of these types of similar claims.... can anyone else? He had a bad day obviously and was pretty upset, so can probably just chalk it up to that, but no doubt this makes me lose some respect for the guy.

What I think you're really talking about here is how badly our D played and how great theirs played. As for the "both guys are Favre physically." I don't know what that means exactly. Allen is the more physically gifted of the 2, pretty clearly. While they have about the same arm strength (it's negligible... though Allen's "ball velocity" measurements at the Combine were greater than Mahomes by a little), Allen is taller by almost 3 inches, 15-20 pounds heavier, has less body fat (so more lean muscle), is faster and more explosive. Allen >>> Mahomes physically Mahomes >>> Allen mentally in terms of playing QB The 2nd matters more, which is why Mahomes is the better QB right now. But with every game played and every season played, I expect Allen to get closer and closer in terms of the mental aspects of the game.

Yes, I agree that's the difference. So the question becomes as to whether Allen will always be like that or not? For me, Allen got significantly better at that this year with multiple incredible performances on primetime stages, including his first ever home playoff game. He got better. Allen played at a tiny high school and then a JuCo and then a small D1 school. The "big stage" is kinda new to him. Patrick Mahomes had a father who played professional sports and who played in the Big 12 at Texas Tech. He kinda grew into knowing how to be a professional athlete and handle the spotlight. Allen is still learning. So yes, I completely agree with you that Mahomes is significantly better at the whole "composure" and "handling the spotlight" thing, and that's largely what makes him the better QB right now. But again, Allen is still getting better and is still, to a large degree, getting used to the spotlight Mahomes grew up learning.

My thoughts exactly

Mahomes honestly doesn't have a lot of holes in his game the way I think Josh still does. Josh has a few things he can work on this offseason and get noticeably better at. Can you tell me anything where Mahomes can do the same? As for Hill and Kelce... there's the contract stuff relating to Mahomes.... also, well... Kelce is the same age as Rob Gronkowski. He'll be 32 next offseason. Outside of Tony Gonzales, how many 35+ year old TEs do you know of that have played at a high level in the NFL? The fact that you asked about the 2 of them tells me that deep down you understand those 2 are synonymous with Mahomes's success.

I wouldn't accept it, honestly. Even though Mahomes is better than Allen right now, there's no sign that Allen has plateaued. I think Mahomes has, albeit at a very high level. I would bet on Allen continuing to get better. And his potential ceiling is, I believe, higher than where Mahomes is right now.

The reason is because of the year Allen just had. And football is a team sport. "They beat us easily two times" really doesn't have anything to do with the individual discussion of Allen vs. Mahomes because the 2 are never on the field at the same time. Despite the misinterpretation of me trying to say Allen is Mahomes's equal earlier, let me be clear: Mahomes is better than Allen RIGHT NOW But Allen is creeping closer and closer and even though I think Mahomes is better right now, statements like "they aren't even in the same ball park!" are just not true. I do think this argument brings back the argument of whether we consider what a QB does on the ground when talking about "QB play." As a passer, Mahomes is obviously better, though they ARE in the same ballpark. You can see this in the fact that vs. common opponents (meaning both of them playing against the same defenses... probably the best way to compare them), Mahomes has a passer rating of 112 and Allen has a passer rating of 103.5. And you can tell that Mahomes is the better passer right now. He's composed and Allen still has some of that "sugar high Josh" that pops up into his passing game. But Allen is still improving and it's not out of the question that Allen could be better by the end of next season. But when you start thinking about what they were able to do on the ground in those common games--Allen rushed for 395 yards and 6 TDs and Mahomes rushed for 221 yards and 2 TDs--I think Allen creeps yet closer to Mahomes, with Mahomes still being better. I think this thread is still going because the trajectory for Allen is going up. I don't think Mahomes will get much/any better, especially once he starts losing some of his weapons (Hill & Kelce) in the next couple years. Personally, I can't wait to see what Allen can do with the actual threat of a real running game from our RBs next year... because I'm really assuming that's going to be a big focus this offseason.

Next year...

Throwing a fastball defines athleticism? Doesn't Allen also throw a 90+ mph fastball? Wasn’t he also a multi-sport athlete? And honestly, I made athleticism a pretty broad category when I should have broken it down to a bunch of categories like size, strength, speed, elusiveness, etc.

And here's the conundrum. I agree Mahomes is performing better. But let's say we swapped Allen and Mahomes and pretend Mahomes is drafted by the Bills in 2017 and Allen is drafted by the Chiefs in 2018. Who is better right now as we end the 2020 season? They're so damn close at this point that KC's talent and coaching just makes Mahomes "obviously better" right now.

This is just what Allen is. Allen had to be Superman against the Chiefs because of a combination of a great defensive game plan by the Chiefs, a banged up WR corps on the Bills, porous OL play, and poor defensive play. That game against the Chiefs proved the Chiefs were by far the better team than the Bills on that day, but I don't think it proved anything necessarily in the Allen and Mahomes argument. But for lack of a better argument: Athleticism Allen >>> Mahomes This won't ever change, barring injury. And although Mahomes is definitely athletic and elusive, I don't really think this one is arguable. Arm Strength Allen === Mahomes Obviously debatable, but the difference is negligible in either direction. This also won't ever change, barring injury Leadership Allen === Mahomes Speculative and I would generally give the edge to Allen just based on what I've seen (hugging every single offensive player after the loss to the Chiefs), but I honestly don't watch enough of Mahomes or the Chiefs to know what he does and doesn't do... maybe our resident KC fan @Zerovoltz can give us those specific insights. Competitive Drive Allen >>> Mahomes All these are speculative, but just watch Allen play. All those 20-30 yard sacks fall under this category. So do plays like the one he got injured against the Raiders, had to go out of the game briefly and came back in to keep playing through his injury. And yes, Mahomes has played through injury, too. But I don't think we've seen Mahomes face anywhere near the adversity Allen has faced in his first 3 years. Yet, Allen is now thriving through that adversity. This category and the next category I think kinda go hand in hand... Work Ethic Allen >>> Mahomes I don't think this is arguable, but obviously feel free to do so. Allen has drastically improved in every single offseason. You can just see it in his face and hear it in his voice every time he's interviewed. You read about it in his work in the offseasons with Jordan Palmer and then hear it in interviews by Palmer himself. You hear about it with pleas to Tony Romo last year during the Super Bowl on how to get better. You hear it from Daboll after Allen makes stupid mistakes and Daboll talking about how Allen won't make the same mistake again because he learns from them. Again. For me this is the adversity Allen has faced and the consistent improvement every year. Mahomes landed in almost the perfect situation with the perfect coach and a team with continuity of talent that had made the playoffs with 10+ wins the 3 years before he became the starter. I just think Allen has that Jordan quality where he hates losing exponentially more than he loves winning and he uses it to drive him. Accuracy Allen <<< Mahomes I actually think the argument to be made is that Allen is now more accurate than Mahomes, but I'm giving Mahomes the edge here, despite the fact that Allen's completion percentage was higher than Mahomes. I don't know why I'm giving Mahomes the edge (been doing it for longer? better deep ball thrower?), but at least at this moment I think it's possible that Mahomes is more accurate than Allen. Then again, this might be me trying a little too hard to be objective here because I actually think Allen has made many more of those "wow!!!" throws on the bread and butter intermediate 10-30 yard passes than Mahomes has made this year. I think those are all the individual categories you can cover with a QB. What we have left are the external components like coaching and surrounding talent. And Mahomes has the edge for those. Despite our great WR corps, KC's top 3 receiving threats of Kelce, Hill and Hardman >>>> Diggs, Brown/Davis, Beasley. And Reid/Bienamy/Spagnolo >>> (at least right now) McDermott/Daboll/Frazier. And then throw in the actual threat of a running attack from RBs on the Chiefs that Buffalo doesn't have. So... has Allen "caught up" with Mahomes? I actually think he's about there. But again maybe overcompensating I'll say he isn't quite there, yet. But the thing is, Allen is still improving. Can we say that about Mahomes?

Can you explain it for those of us who don't want to watch it? Pleeeeaaaassseeee!!!!

Nicely written Shaw. The game was disappointing, but I wasn't upset after the game ended and haven't been upset since. For me the Chiefs were just obviously better on that day. That doesn't mean they always will be or even that they were the obviously better team in say week 14 or 15. But the reality is that Buffalo's success this year went strictly through Josh Allen. Our Defense was opportunistic, but often too sieve-like. Our running game was nonexistent. Wins and Losses came on the arm and legs of Josh Allen. And going into the game against the Chiefs, our ENTIRE WR corps was injured. We found out later that Beasley fractured his fibula in Week 17. John Brown was clearly not 100% still dealing with the knee injury he was on IR for earlier in the season. Gabriel Davis had some kind of an ankle injury the week before against the Ravens that was bad enough to make him a game time decision. Diggs had an "oblique" injury, which I think was exacerbated when he was body-slammed. So our amazing WR corps--and make no mistake, they were absolutely amazing this year--is wholly injured and I honestly have no clue if that factored into the Chiefs game plan to press at the line against our WRs and play really physical, but it worked like a charm for them. When healthy, I think our WR corps would have been able to get open more consistently. Unfortunately, they were hobbled. So we were relying on Josh Allen's arm throwing to a hobbled receiving corps and his legs, which are clearly being taught out of him. Allen should have run more on some of those passing plays. Yes, I realize he gained 88 yards with his legs, but there were some openings where he should have run, but instead forced a pass or threw it away. I'm not upset this offseason because I'm 100% sure this game will serve as fuel to light the competitive fire of the likes of Allen, Diggs and co. and they're going to come back next year stronger. I'm not upset because I think we've pretty much reached the point where we should expect to be legitimate Super Bowl contenders every year. And I think we'll be back next year.

Yes I agree Milano is better now and I really do wish we could keep him. But Edmunds has 3 years of steady improvement with the team and 2 more years to keep improving. And he's soooOOOoooo young. This isn't a debate

The time hasn't come for Edmunds. The time has come for Milano. There's really no need for this debate because we have Edmunds locked down with us for 2 more years. The debate really should be whether we just let Milano walk or pay him top dollar. I'm on the side that we should let him walk because when he says "top dollar" I'm assuming he's talking Khalil Mack and Von Miller type money, and he's definitely not worth that.