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I hear you. Basically I just meant that when it comes to wanting to return for 2019 or not, the ball definitely seems to be in their court. They value both guys pretty highly and clearly they're still effective. What's great about it is that both have seen their snap-count drop a fair amount compared to last year. I think if they do come back both guys will continue to play in rotational and situational roles. If I had to guess I would say Kyle hangs it up before Lorenzo. Kyle has been a starter playing a high percentage of snaps for most of his career while Lorenzo made his living on special teams and as a backup until earning a full-time starting role with the Bills. Despite his age, he doesn't have the same mileage on him that Kyle does and I think he's driven to show he can still produce despite his age. And Beane basically said that it's all up to Kyle if he wants to come back. The job is his if he wants it. I think the same goes for Lorenzo.

I always go back to this article the Bills website posted just prior to the 2014 season. It went really in-depth on Manuel's history, upbringing and development in football. The thing that was mentioned that stood out to me is that EJ actually needed a fair amount of tutoring all through middle and high school. Not that that's a bad thing or whatever, but my takeaway from that was that EJ was probably always gonna have trouble with the mental aspect of playing QB. You have to know what all ten of your fellow teammates are doing or need to do on any given play. You need to assess defensive looks both pre and post-snap. You have to be able to check out of plays, you have to recognize if the defense is giving a specific look that you know you have a play in the playbook that can beat that look (kinda like how Allen checked into the go-route to Foster on the "the sun was in mah eyes!" play from Sunday), etc. etc. There's just so much to the position mentally that it's easy to see how young QBs get overwhelmed very easily. And despite the fact that EJ's work ethic is off the charts, there are some things in the game that are a "you either got it or you don't" type of situation and I think his post-snap decisions showed how difficult it was for him to properly adjust to what the defense was throwing at him. His internal clock always seemed a tick slow and his brain seemed to default to "no one's open, don't hang around and wait for something to develop, just run!" most of the time. I also recall a scouting report I read on him which made a good point: the person EJ trusts the most to make a play is himself. He still locks onto his first read at times and if it isn't there, he takes off, clean pocket or not. He has a hesitancy to toss one up in a 50/50 situation and give his guys a chance to make a play. It certainly didn't help that Marrone and Hackett both wanted to run the ball forever and coached him to bail and run if his immediate reads weren't open. That's pisspoor coaching. EJ had his own flaws for sure but the coaching around him in Buffalo was hot garbage. Marrone is a moody weirdo, Hackett always looked like he was in over his head, and the QB coach was Todd Downing, who, at the time, had a resume of being basically an assistant to other assistant coaches up until 2011 when he was hired to coach QBs in Detroit. He did really well with Derek Carr from 2015 to 2016 and was even promoted to OC for 2017 where he promptly drove that entire side of the ball into the ground all the way to China and was fired as soon as the season ended. You could even say that EJ had a fairly decent supporting cast having Woods, Watkins, Goodwin and Hogan. He had Glenn and Wood in their prime up front, had Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller, but things just didn't pan out. I also don't think Marrone liked the kid from day one, honestly. He wanted to roll with Kolb until he was viciously attacked by a floor-mat, leaving them no choice to start Manuel, who had missed most of the pre-season that year due to injury but was rushed back for week one. EJ takes his lumps in 2013, heads into 2014 thinking he's the unquestioned starter... but then... what was it... ten days before the regular season started and here comes Kyle Orton and there goes EJ's confidence. Now he has a decent veteran to learn from, maybe that's what he was told, but four games in he gets sent to the bench and has been a backup ever since. And there was all that friction between Marrone and Whaley who were at polar opposites when it came to the QB position. Marrone kicked and screamed for a vet QB until he got his way all while Whaley was like, "play the kid!" No cohesion up top makes things difficult. I dunno, a lot goes into it. He definitely shouldn't have been a first round pick, him being taken 16th overall created pressure from a good part of the fan-base who sees "first round pick EJ Manuel, oh, he must be awesome to go in the first, he better not suck!!" and they call for his benching the minute he throws one crappy pass. I think at best, EJ could've been a high quality game manager. Rely on the run, play it safe most times, protect the ball, eat up the clock and every now and then let him take some shots. With better coaching and understanding he could've been a guy like that. But, his flaws combined with a poor coaching setup in Buffalo pretty much doomed his career by the end of his rookie season.

I don't think he's ready to be "the guy" of the tight end group but I certainly think he can play an important role. Remember, the dude played wide receiver for most of his college career. Don't quote me, but I think he shifted to TE in his senior season. He's got size and athleticism, obviously he's still learning how to be a well-rounded TE but, I think he's a guy you keep working with and see where he can go. He definitely seems to have the right type of character and mindset McBeane prefer. I'd just like him to learn to know when he's beaten, and by that I mean, if you're surrounded by five defenders with four of them already on your back, maybe just say "screw it" to the extra half-a-yard you're trying to get and get down so you don't fumble. That's happened twice to him this year and once last year if I recall correctly, can't cough it up like that. Especially this past Sunday's situation. I mean, I get it, he was trying to break free and score but he has to know when he's beat and when to secure the ball and just hit the turf. Didn't do that and he cost the team points. That extra half-yard ain't worth losing the ball. He'll learn...maybe... I had high hopes for Logan Thomas but that drop on Sunday basically closed the door on him for me. He's JAG and he's just barely made the cut last year and this year so...unless he shows immense improvement next season, I think he'll be shown the door. They need a tight end with a wonky last name like Metzelaars or Riemersma, those guys panned out alright, maybe a guy named Jablonkski or Grundlesnork can come in and be the guy.

Yeah, this is a good observation. We know they are all in on the youth movement but I think it's pretty clear that McBeane places a pretty high value on having experienced leaders in the locker room. The way they've set things up for the future is what makes me hopeful for the whole process. In 2017 they went out and signed a handful of veteran players that are still under 30 (i.e. Hyde, Poyer, etc.) and then they brought back Kyle and Lorenzo as like the "elder statesmen" or whatever, and finally, they headed into this season with a super high percentage of the roster being made up of first, second or third year players. They keep a good mix of experience, leadership, and youth. And I'm pretty sure the whole point of having those veteran leaders around is to show the youngins how to conduct yourself as a professional, provide leadership, and get these kids ready for the "passing of the torch" that'll inevitably happen. And those two guys, #95 and #57, I'm pretty sure they have a "you have a job here for as long as you want" type of situation. Gotta respect that. Obviously McBeane haven't hit on every decision (no team does) but I can certainly see the reasoning behind their team-building methods at this point.

Did anyone else see the NFL Films version of Allen's Mic'd Up from the last game? My favorite part is probably where he and Daboll on are on the sidelines and Daboll says, "You're doing a great job today, getting the ball out on time, everything's looking good." The very next clip is where he scrambled and fumbled, which kinda cracked me up just based on the way they had it play out. "Hey Josh, you're doing great!" "Thanks, Coach, I promise I won't fum-- dang it!"

You can apply this stuff to the 31 other teams that also didn't draft Brady, Gronk, Roethlisberger, Wilson, etc. Brady was an afterthought to most teams, viewed as barely a backup. Other teams passed on Gronk for the same reason the Bills did, dude had a laundry list of injuries throughout college and was seen as a guy that would spend more time in the training room than on the field. Every other team in the league had Russell Wilson projected as a 4th round or later pick. Seattle was the only team that had him projected as a 3rd round guy. Wilson met with the Bills at the Combine, came to Buffalo for a pre-draft visit and word was, the Bills wanted to take him in the 4th, Seattle just beat everyone to it. This kinda hindsight stuff is a little silly. You never know who's going to work out and who isn't when it comes to the draft. There have been a bunch of "sure thing" players that have been colossal busts and plenty of "this guy is a bust before he even plays a down" players who have turned into All-Pros. You just never know.

I guess it depends on which part of the field they're coming from. All players on the sideline have to stay in between the 30 yard lines. If a guy runs straight to the sideline from say, he 20, he can still cause his team to get penalized.... I think....

Man, sign me up for a house like that whenever the time comes for me to actually buy one. Good luck, OP, hope everything works out.

Yeah, this is what's up. I don't know if I've ever seen a season in which the receivers just aren't coming down with the ball the way these Bills receivers haven't been doing. For someone as big and (supposedly) as strong as KB, I've never seen more "drops after the catch" from someone. Guy can get his hands on the ball but like, every other pass he couldn't reel it all the way in. It'd get knocked out on his way to the ground, or the ground would knock it out. Zay has passes zipping through his hands and smacking him in the facemask. Clay looks like the most adjusting to a throw he can do is to move his hands maybe 6 or 8 inches outside his frame and that's it. The receivers they go after in free agency or the draft need to be guys who are really good at adjusting to oddly placed throws and coming down with contested catches. I know Allen can fire a pinpoint perfect pass when everything goes just right for him but that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Allen has that "area code" accuracy going on. He can get it within a receivers catch radius but it's not always gonna be right in the numbers. Receivers that play here are just gonna have to get used to that. I dunno, if I'm Terry Robiskie, maybe I find a way for the Juggs machine to fire "at random" so these guys get used to catching balls from a variety of catch points.

Well, the fact that Beane came right out and took ownership of his mistake of not adding a veteran QB to the roster after the McCarron trade should tell you that the front office is capable of evaluating itself and realizing their mistakes. 2018 is the proverbial "sacrifice season" in this process as they work toward sustained success for the future. They knew going into this year that the offense was super young and inexperienced and that it was going to be a bumpy ride. It certainly seems to be finishing up much better than the way it started, though. Even in their last few losses, they haven't been blown out, they've made it a competitive contest and have only lost by seven or fewer points. And at this time of the year, all teams are scanning the waiver wires, looking at practice squad guys, etc. as they start to shape the roster for the 2019 season. You'll see in January a number of guys will be signed to "futures contracts" and all that. They're really still just evaluating and trying to see who has some talent they can work with going forward. And to give an example of "by design" I would point to John Miller and Ike Boettger. Miller wasn't necessarily losing snaps to Boettger for poor performance, its more that they wanna get a look at some guys who haven't had a whole lot of game experience this season. Combine that with the fact that this is Miller's final contracted year here with things indicating that he probably won't be re-signed here, unless they can't find any better options, and that's why Boettger is getting some playing time. I believe McDermott said he wanted to do the same with Milano's spot. He said Corey Thompson, Julian Stanford and Deon Lacy will probably all get snaps there over the last couple games. Essentially they're just sorting through the roster and trying to find out who to hang onto and who to let go as they gear up for 2019.

I'm with you on this. I was a fan of EJ, he did and said all the right things. Clearly he wasn't a first-round guy, but he's certainly more than capable of being a #2 somewhere. I don't know what the heck Mark Davis was expecting when he brought Gruden back on. The guy obviously stays stuck on his evaluations and opinions of players, but it's becoming quite evident that his evaluations and opinions are stuck in 1996 and they're just plain bad. To look at the film between EJ and Peterman and say, "You know what? Nate's my guy," says to me that maybe Gruden should've stayed in the booth. Yup. And they gave Beane a 5th to get him, hahaha. Someone posted it elsewhere in this thread but the Raiders have scooped up JP Losman, Trent Edwards, Matt Flynn, EJ Manuel, AJ McCarron and now Nathan frickin' Peterman all after they played with the Bills. Watch Tyrod head there next season.

Ah, yes. I see the video evidence. One severely sprained mangina for little Timmy.

Haha, poor EJ. I'd definitely sign him over Nate if it came down to it. At least EJ can take off and run with it when he can't find anywhere to throw it. Nate just throws it to the other team in those scenarios. I'm surprised EJ hasn't found work somewhere. I mean, he's not great but he has plenty of starting experience, he's a good teammate, hard worker, all the things you want in a backup QB. Maybe he'll catch on somewhere next season but who knows.

Keep in mind, a lot of these young players are playing by design. McDermott just said the other week that these last few games would be about evaluating the young talent on this team. I also didn't know they un-retired #12 for Allen... how 'bout that...

EJ Manuel is gonna blow a gasket, lol

McDermott was let go after Reid was fired in Philly, which is typical when a new coach comes in. He remained Carolina's DC from the time he got the job in 2011 until the Bills offered him the HC job here. Nice try, tho.

I despise both teams but I'm so used to the Pats beating up on the Bills that it's kinda second nature at this point. I would definitely prefer it if they made it a contest and didn't get their dupas handed to them, but, we'll see what happens. Lately though, I just hate Miami more. Nobody in Florida seems to give a crap about any of the teams that play in that state. That stadium was as exciting as a wet fart when the Bills played there a few weeks ago. Ryan Tannehill looks like a human muppet. Frank Gore is 640000 years old. Kiko Alonso looks like a damn caveman. Bah. I hate their dumb orange and aqua faces. May they all get the runs for Christmas. On the flipside, Tannehill plays like he's a fourth-string JV clipboard holder when in Buffalo, so... hope that trend continues.

They might get a call or two about him but I don't think any team out there will put him in serious contention for a head coaching gig. And if a team does come calling, I'd pull the ol' blockaroo on them and not allow him to interview if I was McDermott. I know he wants to see his guys do well and move up the ladder but they need to have some consistency at this stage of the process. You can't let your first-year OC walk out the door after he's worked with your rookie QB all season.

Yeah, I definitely would've liked to see Woods stick around. I do believe the Bills offered him a deal but he wanted to test free agency and was fortunate enough to be wanted by his hometown team. Also can't blame him for wanting to go to a team that throws the ball more. Bills have ranked last in passing attempts every year since 2015 I think. Most receivers don't want any part of a run-first team.

The league is all about trends and ebbs and flows. Ten years ago the Wildcat was the major trend every team tried to adopt after Miami slapped New England with it. Eventually defenses caught up and the Wildcat went away. Six years ago it was all about athletic QB's and designed QB runs, (Colin Kaepernick shredding Green Bay for 181 yards on the ground in the 2012 playoffs). Defenses adjusted and now you don't see it as often as you used to. Nowadays offenses are taking elements of the college spread game and mixing it with pro offenses in order to bring their young QBs up to speed a little faster. This caused a huge upward swing in offensive production and scoring but as the season went on, defenses caught up, as they do every year. RPOs are still trending but teams have also found ways to stop those. There are only so many plays you can run. The chess match stuff between coaches comes down to formations and situational football. Being aware of what your opponent is doing when you give them a certain look so you can hopefully circle back to that same look later in the game and make them expect the same type of play from earlier only to spin around and execute something totally different. Take McKenzie and the jet sweep motion Daboll often puts him in. Against the Jags they showed that motion four or five times to get the Jags thinking that he was in motion just so Allen could see whether or not the defense was in man or zone. Then, they get inside the red zone and run that motion again except this time it's a quick handoff to him and he walks into the end zone. Worked again a couple weeks later against the Jets. No matter how many rules the league creates to favor the offense, defenses will always catch up. And then offenses will adjust and come out with a different attack and that'll work for a bit but then defenses catch on and stop it. Back and forth it goes as it has for decades. Lot of low scores yesterday as well... 14-13, 17-16, 16-13, 23-0, 24-17, 20-12, 17-0, 17-10, etc.

It's draft capital. McCarron didn't exactly light it up in preseason so it's not like they suffered a major loss in moving him. They gained an extra pick and replaced him with a player on about the same skill level with a cheaper contract. And a 5th rounder could be Kyle Williams... or Matt Milano... or Isiah McKenzie... you never know where you're going to find talent.

Honestly, the plays Tre has had made on him aren't really much fault of his own. He's been in position and most times QBs will throw elsewhere when seeing how well Tre has his man covered. But against the Jets and yesterday against the Lions, the throws were just unbelievable. Almost every CB is gonna get beat when the throw is in a position where only the receiver has a shot at it. Tre has been solid all season, despite a couple of big plays made on him the last couple weeks, it still isn't that bad compared to what he's done over the entire year.

I think they planned on it... what they didn't plan on was Oakland calling and offering a 5th round pick. McCarron is just another guy, not that difficult to replace, so they traded him and took the extra pick which they can use in the draft on a player or as part of a deal to move around the board. And now they have their replacement for him plus the extra pick. Win win.

Even if they finished 5-11 and had the 6th or 7th overall pick, do you really think Beane is gonna stand pat right there? No way. Too many needs right now. I'm pretty sure he'll wanna trade down to collect some more picks, especially if they're targeting a specific offensive player because right now, of the top 15 players, like... 12 of them are on defense. Not that I'd mind them adding a defensive player, but I think it just makes more sense for them to try to add more picks and find the best value they can when they pick.

The light is on, it just flickers sometimes. Guy still leads the team in receptions. Consistency is his main issue right now. I said this in another thread but I think he's fighting himself most of all. He might be in his own head, thinking too much and just not allowing himself to play fast.