oldmanfan

I guess Shakir fits the bill then

You are the most ridiculous person here and that’s saying something. I said I think the idea of # 1 vs 2 etc for WRs is a bit overblown and you somehow turn it into stuff about matchups and then incredibly switch it to some rant about QBs. QBs are the most important players in any position in sports and we have a great one. The idea of #1 vs 2 vs whatever is to me overblown and guys will get open based not just on talent but on play calling.

My guess is Josh and the coaches had had enough of Diggs’ complaints and stuff so they moved him. I can’t imagine Beane does that without Josh agreeing.

I think all the # designations for WRs are a bit overblown myself. As for gaslighting, compare last year to this year at the WR spot. The biggest difference is Diggs. Samuel is at least even with Davis, Shakir is back, and Coleman and MVS are better than the other guys from last year. So if your claim that all of a sudden the Bills WR corps is terrible is not based solely on Diggs, then what are you basing it on?

That seemed to be your implication. Glad to hear you recognize this.

You are doom and gloom because of 1 guy out of 5 in the WR group. Diggs. Samuel and Shakir are 2 or 3 guys, however you want to define WR “#”. MVS was good enough to be a contributor on the SB winner. And we see what the rookie brings. Meanwhile Diggs will be probably the third option in Houston.

So your opinion is that no young guys can ever get better, nor old guys never get worse. A Diggs will always be phenomenal and a Samuel or Shakir will never amount to anything. Got it. And by the way 2+2 = 4 is not debatable. Opinions on football players always are.

You should read up on some Greg Cosell stuff. I think he’s the guy who said Diggs wasn’t a Tier 1 guy last year. So it is somewhat debatable. This group will succeed or fail based on Brady’s schemes to get them open.

I would have to go back and look at the data again, but I think between 1-2% of all throws in the league last year travelled over 40 yards. This is not the Mad Bomber days where you put a guy outside in one on one man coverage and he just sprints down the field to get open. Defenses are too complex now. Straight line speed in today’s league is more important to get more yards after a catch, and in that regard so called football speed is more important. Hence my using Rice as an example. Regardless of 40 time, no one caught him from behind on a football field.

On both sides of the ball. Straight line speed counts for WR and DBs then. Our WR corps has guys that are fast. The critical things about the relative success of our WRs will be how Brady schemes route trees and such to get guys open, and Josh distributing the ball to the open guy and not trying to force feed any individual guy.

Ask Jerry Rice how much 40 times matter.

I suppose my biggest is Bass, although replacing a kicker is relatively simple. But as I’ve said previously this season’s success is about Brady and designing an offense that effectively uses the talent he has.

Good points. Maybe it’s not total cash spent but who you spend it on.

Has the potential.

Never that impressed by Godwin. And it would appear we are now including TEs which is fine. So we have Shakir, Samuels, and Kincaid. Let’s see what they do. Or Coleman of course.

The Bucs had Evans but I don’t believe they had another great WR. The Rams with Kupp and OBJ I would agree. I suppose to me multiple means 3-4 high end guys, and there simply isn’t cap room for that and a veteran star QB. To me to win a SB you need a great QB (we have one), a balanced offense that can hit in various ways (I’m more optimistic than others, a D that can get stops when needed (jury is out for us there), and luck (no injuries).

And then it costs you on in other spots. Take the Fish. They are doing what you ask but they lost a ton on the defensive side of the ball due to cap constraints. And now they also have a disgruntled QB. I just hope Samuel or Shakir or Coleman or whoever come up big and shut everyone up.

But that elite pass catcher doesn’t have to be a WR as the Chiefs have shown. As for a rookie Shakir was drafted a couple years ago and now seems to be a top tier type. We’ll see how Coleman does as well. And they drafted Kincaid, Cook as a pass catching RB. What we have is the classic reaction of: You have to draft a WR! Beane does exactly that at the top of Round 2. And the cry then becomes : Not THAT one! Our offense will hold up its end. Any team with a QB like Josh will do so. I would simply avoid overarching statements when they are easily disproven

Multiple high end pass catchers does not work when you have a star QB and the salary cap.

The argument about not having Diggs anymore as a #1 WR, that we don't have anyone to replace him, ad nauseum ignores one basic thing: the situation for any given player or team is not static. Take for example the idea that Samuel (or Shakir, or Coleman, or whomever) might be as good as Diggs or might not, as debated above. The entire argument by those saying Samuel can't be a replacement assumes a static situation where Samuel can never improve or that Diggs will be the Diggs he was for the majority of his career with the Bills. But things are not static in the NFL. Diggs for example is getting older. His level of play fell off the last half of last season (whether that was him or Brady's calls we don't know for sure). Note that the best trade Beane could get was with a team where Diggs will be, at best, the #2 guy and possibly the #3 guy on the Texans (good luck dealing with that in the locker room CJ). Pundits such as Greg Cosell have noted that Diggs has not been at a #1 talent level for a while now. So we can't assume Diggs would have been the Diggs of old if we had kept him this year. I think the odds favor more that his level would have fallen off a bit more. Now take say Samuel. He is relatively young, can move around from slot to outside, and has put up fairly good numbers despite never having played with a good QB. It certainly seems possible that Samuel can see a significant uptake in stats with Josh throwing him the ball. Shakir also came on last year. So, between these two guys it seems we should have some good guys in the WR corps. Can we assume one or both of these guys will improve like that? No. Is it more likely they improve vs. decline? Seems likely. Will any of the WRs replace in entirety the contributions of a guy like Diggs, especially the Diggs of his first several years as a Bill? Doubtful at best. Can a couple guys like Shakir and Samuel replicate the contributions of Diggs and Davis? Quite possibly. One thing I think we can all say with confidence is that, under Brady's direction, Josh will feel freer to spread the ball around to a lot of guys vs. focus on one guy like a Diggs. And having said all this, if Beane was to pull a surprise and make a trade for someone like Aiyuk would I (or anyone else) be disappointed? Of course not.

I wish all of us here were old farts like me and had seen all the players that wore the Bills uniform. We had a lot of excellent WRs over the years. Earlier I said Jerry Butler would be top of my list. But back in the AFL days you had Duby and Glenn Bass; Bass was a really solid player. In the 70’s JD Hill was solid, great blocker as well. Ahmad Rashad did really well for us. Bobby Chandler was great on sideline routes. Frank Lewis was another really solid WR for us. Then in the Super Bowl era you of course had Reed and Lofton, but I think Beene matched up with Josh would be very interesting. After that era Moulds was terrific; I’d put him and Reed right behind Butler as guys to put with Josh. Stevie Johnson would be fun to see on the field with Josh. Some mention TO but he had a very short stay so I haven’t listed him.

I thought he was 4th round.

And Brady has had an entire off-season to put his playbook in.

So you say it never happened, not once. But it did. So you’re wrong. If they have a similar record to the last half of the year will it be infuriating? Or do they have to achieve that only with a style of play you approve?

Ahem. The playoff game against the Ravens with Taron's 102 yard interception. It's happened even once. Carry on.