Figster
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Posts posted by Figster
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2 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
If the high ranking officials were that important... The whole area would be shut down to others. 😆 God Bless America...
😆Kid is toast!
Mission itself had zero to do with why this collision occurred.
Telling an aircraft to go behind another aircraft that's still a half mile away flying right at each other at 150 mph lacks common sense IMO.
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and then along came jones
tall thin jones
slow-walking' jones
slow-talking' jones
along came long, lean, lanky jones -
Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:
Oh...Tay...
And that's how accidents happen...
Great way to learn... Whenever this report comes out, will be interesting.
Very, cheers my friend
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1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
No... But they have a full 2 minutes to slow down.
Then there's the night vision. Was it a hindrance?
Why were they going balls to the walls after they were granted visual separation.
The practice mission was the safe housing of high ranking Officials. The airliner would become an obstacle they have to work around. The mission would also call for high speeds IMO.
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31 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
It's still the helicopters responsibility to avoid. Where else is it going to go that late in the game? Zip in front... I most certainly hope not!
Seems like common sense... ATC didn't control anything. Just stated the obvious.
And again, if night vision was impairing color discernment, why were they on?
Maybe... There's the issue? Their in visual mode and given the bright environment, did they really need night vision? Was it actually an impairment? I am sure they will look at that?
I tried to explain how in the scenario of trying to go behind a moving object coming at you at 150 mph, it's easier said then done. You seem to think the Blackhawk can just slam on its brakes and let the airliner go by when it's not even possible. Simple heading change saves the day. Any direction, good lord.
Fair enough...
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14 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
I thought this is fact:
"...The pilot replied in the affirmative and asked for “visual separation,” meaning that they would take responsibility for staying clear of the other aircraft. The tower granted it: “Visual separation approved.” ..."
I do find even in my mundane job, young operators tend to lean on tech more than when I started.
Just saying... Young pilot with under 500 hours. It's a tragedy, very big tragedy.
When she went visual... IN THOSE CONDITIONS, maybe the night vision should have been switched off???
Well lets finish the communication
As the two aircraft get closer to each other, an air traffic controller checks in with the military helicopter, asking the pilot, "PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?" The air traffic controller then tells the helicopter pilot to "pass behind" the American Airlines jet.
Air traffic control took control again by telling the Blackhawk where to go,
You get that right?
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5 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/d-c-plane-crash-black-hawk-pilot-error.html
Clearly falls on helo:
"...The controller handling the aircraft in the Reagan tower likewise didn’t do anything wrong. He was keeping track of the Black Hawk as it flew south along the Potomac through a narrow corridor called Route 4 that passed well under the approach path for Runway 33. Seeing that the plane and the helicopter were flying toward each other in opposite directions, the controller called the helicopter on the radio about two minutes before the accident occurred and asked if it had the plane in sight. The pilot replied in the affirmative and asked for “visual separation,” meaning that they would take responsibility for staying clear of the other aircraft. The tower granted it: “Visual separation approved.” ..."
Yet air traffic control had the Blackhawk at 200 ft right where it should be and 100ft below where the accident occurred.
Don't jump to conclusions...
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27 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
They can't mistake. That's what navigation lights are for. White light aft, etc...
You don't see colored lights wearing night vision goggles. Different shades
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/03/us/politics/dc-plane-crash-night-vision-goggles.html
While the image seen through the goggles would present light as either green or white, it does not allow pilots to distinguish between the red or green lights on another aircraft that would signal its direction of flight, which pilots could see by looking just to the side of their goggles.
Flying in highly lit areas, like cities, could also prove challenging, said the pilot, who requested anonymity because he was not authorised to speak publicly about standard flight procedures in the nation’s capital.
Any limitations to a pilot’s peripheral vision or depth perception caused by wearing night-vision goggles are mitigated through frequent training and night-flying, the military pilot said, and it would be up to the pilots whether to wear their goggles up or down at any given moment – depending on the situation or environment. NYTIMES
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1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
What kind of instructions would help? Common sense says look where you are going.
A plane is landing... They are coming from the starboard side... I assume they saw the green starboard navigation lights of plane? If they got confused with another taking off, wouldn't they have seen the red port lights?
They were in communication. Transfered visual flight rules over, helo complied, plenty of time to slow down. Yeah, I will wait for it to conclude, but how it can it NOT be their fault. Avoid the plane! One job.
Course change, different heading. Pilots had on night vision goggles. Colored lights NA. Blackhawk pilots may have mistaken the front of the Aircraft for the back. The two aircrafts are going 150 mph at each other.
Absolutely, as will I, The Blackhawk pilots still died serving our country. I will gladly give them the benefit of the doubt. keep in mind the investigation already found a 100ft discrepancy in 300ft of Airspace. Instrumentation error, not human.
As Beck pointed out. Clearance for that helicopter route should be withheld while those runways are in use for landing.
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When I was just a baby, my mama told me, "Son
Always be a good boy, don't ever play with guns"
But I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die
When I hear that whistle blowing', I hang my head and cry (oh yeah!) -
1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:
Where else is helo gonna go? Beat around in front?
So you would send the more maneuverable aircraft in front of the less maneuverable aircraft? That's insane!
That simply doesn't make sense.
Let's just consider this the same elevation, one's gotta give way... And that would always be the helicopter in this situation.
If this was on the water (same elevation), the plane would be the stand-on vessel & helicopter the give-way vessel. You wouldn't even need a controller to explain this.
I simply can't see how the plane or tower is to fault here. The highly maneuverable helo is always the burdened one here... The plane the privileged one here... AND that's exactly what the ATC conveyed & helo assumed, agreed to visual. AVOID the privileged aircraft.
Again... The helo sees the plane's starboard lights early enough?? Zipping along in a helicopter, in the dark, through busy flight patterns is gamble EVEN given that aircraft can pass above or below each other. AND the plane was attempting to land, which I assume was also losing altitude.
The pilot had under 500 hours. That's not a lot. Like 11 weeks of being on the job in the air. Just saying...
Seconds away from paths crossing and you are telling a moving aircraft to stop in its tracks and let the other moving aircraft pass so you can go behind it. Cruising speed of a Blackhawk is over 150 mph
To me that's insane and not the kind of instructions that can help the Blackhawk at this point. How about a course change, different heading perhaps. The kind of generic response you might get though when one person tries to do the job of two IMO.
100ft discrepancy in 300 ft of airspace is the problem I see here. Tower had the Blackhawk at 200ft. Collison occurred at 300ft.
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14 hours ago, Beck Water said:
As a general issue, IMHO having a heavily used helicopter flyway which passes ~200 ft below the altitude a jet flying a stabilized approach will pass through on a standard approach to a heavily used airport just seems like a Very Bad Idea. It seems to me clearance for that helicopter route should be withheld while those runways are in use for landing. That’s an operational decision that goes above the level of the guys and gals manning the tower though.
I agree,
A clue perhaps
When you look at the flight paths it appears the Blackhawk would have had all the time in the world to see the airliner and make a course adjustment. In reality and at the speeds they were traveling I'm not so sure because of the slight left bank the airliner was making on approach to the runway. Looking directly at the airliner from the BlackHawk it may have made it difficult to make the proper course adjustment. Looks like the BlackHawk made a sharp right bank at the last second trying to miss the airliner.
Directing the BlackHawk to go behind the airliner may have inadvertently helped trigger the crash IMO.
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3 hours ago, Beck Water said:
This blogger calls it IMHO:
"We’ve basically seen the normalization of planes and helicopters flying hundreds of feet apart with visual separation, and sooner or later, that’s not going to end well, as it leaves virtually no margin."He points out:
"It’s not like air traffic controllers can start restricting military helicopters and keeping them out of their airspace, without intervention on a higher level."
This is a big part of the problem in my humble opinion. Military and civilian aviation flying together under different rules/ chain of command.
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This may have been brought up already.
One of the 1st things that jumped out at Captain Sully was the technique in aviation called visual separation that was used. This rather common technique passes responsibility of an aircraft flight path from the control tower over to the pilot, in this case flying the Blackhawk.
At 1st glance this technique clearly needs the control tower to continue monitoring all air traffic including the Blackhawk and make precautionary course changes when needed IMO. In this case none was given to the airliner or Blackhawk.
https://www.today.com/video/captain-sully-sullenberger-weighs-in-on-dc-plane-crash-230690373713
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40 minutes ago, clearwater cadet said:
I would think it harder to cover a fast running back out of the back field than a WR. Seem the back is going to be covered by a linebacker or D-line dropping into coverage. Back got a little bit of a running start. Don't get me wrong I love Ty Johnson, but Cook seemed to be at another level that game.
Joe Brady did a very good job this season IMO. 2 playoff wins in the young coaches cap along with getting Buffalo to the AFC Championship. Featuring a well balanced Offense run and pass. Good ball distribution giving all the Bills play makers a chance to contribute. The kind of Offense that helps bring about longevity at the QB position. That being said James Cook is borderline elite in my humble opinion and more touches vs KC wins the game IMO.
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19 minutes ago, 90sBills said:
Yeah. The D did its job by holding them to a fg instead of a TD so our elite qb could have a chance to cement his legacy with a winning drive.
I guess it’s hard for some people to see this. But sure poor more resources in the defense and have future playoff games end exactly the same way. Apparently 0-4 is not enough to see this yet.
I appreciate the discussion. Normally I'm all about drafting good targets for Josh. Overall with the addition of Cooper I view Allens supporting cast, WR's TE's RB's to be very good. One that will only get better season 2 for Cooper and hopefully Keon Coleman IMO.
The Bills need more help on D then O in my humble opinion.
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1 minute ago, 90sBills said:
The defense made a phenomenal stop at the 3min mark to give the offense a chance to win. Then the offense that supposedly have no problem scoring couldn’t even get past midfield. You get this right?There is no defense in the world that could shut down a great offense with a great quarterback. All you can hope to do is stop them at the end with a chance for your own great offense and great quarterback to go win the game. It’s about opportunities and we had that opportunity.
We hold them to 3 points on their last scoring drive. KC D prevents Buffalo from scoring again. The better D wins the game.
Comprende?
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1 minute ago, 90sBills said:
Yeah seeing how we came up 4pts short I’d say scoring was a problem. Especially that last drive when it mattered most.Don't you think making decisions on where we need help the most should be determined by the body of work throughout the season?
Other teams D makes plays. KC stopped the drive with good Defense.
You get that right?
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I really want Buffalo's next draft to concentrate on the D.
Scoring was not the problem.
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15 minutes ago, I'mBuff said:
The reality of Brady is for all the good he brought in scoring he still failed in his biggest moment. His lack of creativity is the biggest reason we lost. His inability to integrate Cooper effectively and a lesser extent MVS, was a critical flaw. Getting away from Cook at crucial junctures of the game and repeatedly relying on the Tush push that was not working are all unforgivable offenses. It’s hard to say he’s a problem with all the success we had, but the goal isn’t to be AFC East champions, he did not show he has what it takes to win a Super Bowl . A few better calls from him and we are preparing for our 5th Super Bowl. Sadly he is a major reason we are not.
One scoring drive away from the Superbowl. One, against arguably the best football the league has ever seen. By winning 3 Championships in a row Mahomes and the Chiefs will be cemented into NFL history as the best Dynasty team ever. Only one team could beat them with starters playing this season. Buffalo
One scoring drive away. One
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6 minutes ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:
54 years of fandom for me, remember watching the Electric Co and the juice! My only team and always will be!
About the same for me.
Born in Buffalo and the juice is where it all began.
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6 hours ago, billieve420 said:
Nothing comes easy in this pass offense for Josh. I saw a lot this season of Josh just buying time scrambling looking to make a play because no one was open. Part of the blame can be pointed at the talent around him but some of it is scheme. Since taking over last year the passing offense hasn’t been great and one no one is scared of. Brady took the weakness which was the run game and he turned it completely around to where it is the strength of the offense. However, the passing game took a step back. Need to challenge teams in all parts of the fields and pick up chunk plays.Diggs vanished could argue that he had been checked out but looked completely washed once Brady took over. Tight ends which are invisible. Traded a 3rd for a guy in Cooper who was a non factor the entire year. I don’t see longevity with Josh’s career like Brady had because they play totally different styles. Will Josh be able to evolve into a pocket passer once he loses some of that scrambling and playmaking ability. The style Josh plays can wear a guy down. If he can make it to his mid thirties the way he is going would be happy.
Yet the Bills ranked 2 in the NFL in scoring Offense and beat the number 1 scoring Offense by scoring more points vs Lions. Ranked 2nd in red zone Offense. Tied for 2nd with 65 TD's. Best TD to INT ratio Josh Allen has ever had in a season. (28 TD's 6 INT's)
Wear a guy down how? Less hits running because a RB is carrying the load? Less hits passing when sack numbers are lowest ever in a season?
Really?
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1 hour ago, Augie said:
You can roll the dice. I like the guy who has us in contention every year as a perennial SB favorite. You may get another Rex or who knows what. There is a very significant risk that the team slides backward. McD would be unemployed for just a few minutes until he decided which job he’d like next. The next fanbase would be THRILLED to have him.
It’s certainly not perfect, but I like the idea of letting him continue to grow in the job. It took Ried quite a few years to get his first ring.
Oh, and then there is this:
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McD started this amazing culture change by taking Buffalo into the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor behind Center after a 2 decade drought.
Considering the player turnover Buffalo overachieved this season in my humble opinion.
Sounds like something A Rodgers might do OP.
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Plane crash at Reagan Ntll. airport. Plane went into the Potomac.
in Off the Wall
Posted · Edited by Figster
Did you even look at the great depth this guy went into explaining the blind spot on a BlackHawk?
Or are you just that determined to blame the military/Blackhawk?
Pat25 bank hard left!, I repeat Pat 25 bank hard left,! you are on a collision course. Do it now!
I have never been in an air traffic control tower, zero experience in something of this nature. Even I could have prevented this collision