SouthNYfan

On the other thread you said you "don't see a dropoff", which means they will be as good as last year, does it not? That is a baseless assumption and a massive leap of faith when considering the oline situation. They are replacing the two best starters with two backups who were already on the team on regards to the oline. That's a fact. They were the backups for a reason, and the starters retired, leaving the Bills in a pickle. It's beyond optimistic at best to assume they will be equal to last year's. Their receiving corps best wr just had yet another knee surgery, which objectively means he will most likely regress, but he may not, which I can accept. We lost Thompson who was a decent wr, picked up Kerley, who isn't bad, and is probably a wash. Jones, who was pretty bad last year, tried to jump out of a window, and seems to have a huge mental block with catching the ball. Our fa QB hasn't started in a couple years, and was mediocre when throwing to arguably the great receiving corps in the NFL that year, including aj green who is incredible. Now he's getting put behind a patchwork, inexperienced oline, with bottom of the league receivers and a inconsistant te. So please, tell my why you don't see a dropoff with that group? You just keep saying "you can't tell me my opinion is wrong!" I'm sure your opinion is that the world is flat also, right?

You sound angry John. I think you need to relax. What are you looking at them which disctates calling clay an "excellent pass catcher" other than his catch %? I have pointed out many ways in which he's inconsistant, and many objective things in regards to the wr corps, the QB situation, and the oline potential issues. You on the other hand seem to be excited about everything because it's the bills and you said they'll be okay, yet have no actual evidence that they will be, and my assumptions are based on reality and objectively looking at our squad, while yours are just "BUT I SAID THEY WILL BE GOOD SO THEY WILL BE. IT'S MY OPINION SO IT CAN'T BE WRONG"

That's true Clay wasn't very consistent in Miami either though. Go look back at his history. If he's not trying hard week on week out, which it seems like he isn't, then he's inconsistant, therefore I wouldn't call him "excellent" I look at basketball, Jr Smith is a streaky, inconsistant 3 pt shooter. When he's hot, he hits like 12 of 16 three pointers and is on fire. They he will go like 3 of 20 over the next two games. I would call him streaky and inconsistant, but dangerous when he's on. That's how I view clay. He not a reliable safety valve, which is what most TEs are for their QB. He's available randomly to make plays, but isn't consistently open, whether that's the schemes, his effort, his talent level, I'm not sure, but he's not consistently there.

I'll give you an example: -a team with no good receivers (say Buffalo) trades next year's draft picks for Julio Jones and AJ green, so it's an honest, objective assumption that their WR corps will be improved from the previous year -a team with very good receivers (say Pittsburgh) trades Antonio brown and juju to another team for draft picks next year, then a Pitts fan comes out and says "we still have the best WRs in the league, they will be great!" Which is obviously biased and unrealistic when you lose your two best receivers I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this. Not an opinions are correct, John. If you don't want to baseless opinion ripped to shreds then stop posting it.

What did I say about drops? Nothing. They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent. That's the point. Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time. He's not reliable from week to week. That's the point. You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play. His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami. Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

They are both inconsistent. An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out. They have yet to show that.

That's the point of a discussion. To discuss other people's thoughts on things. Would you like a safe corner where everybody just agrees with you, no matter what outlandish and baseless assumptions you make? Losing 2 of our best oline starters is a cause for concern, and it is completely unrealistic to not be concerned about it. Keep your head in the sand though.

Haha I don't think Cooper sucks by any means. He had over 2200 yards in his first two seasons Last year was a bit of a drop-off to around 659-700 but their whole team imploded last year Anyway overall we agree

What does that even mean? Glenn was one of our top 3 linemen Even if you disagree on that we still lost wood and incognito, who were our top 2 The oline has serious questions Do you even know what "homer" means? It's somebody who blindly and not objectively believes a team is better than they are, while ignoring actual evidence that they aren't. I'm not sure what you mean by "pissed in pants"

I think we are going to have a tough time with boss. I think facing that pass rush with a line that's still full of new players and learning might be tough, but it's at home, and they started cold last year too, so maybe we can take it. Baltimore is always a crapshoot with us, but I think we take it. I don't see us winning in Minnesota or GB, like at all, barring a bad injury to one of their stars.

He fumble the same amount in 92 as 91. He had 24 more rushes and 4 more receptions and had 6 fumbles in 92 vs 5 in 91 The years were basically identical. About 131 vs 135 total yards per game 12 total TDs Really it was the same season repeated. 1992 was Steve Young MVP season and that emmit almost cracked 1800 yards rushing. Thurman no showed in the Redskins Superbowl after his MVP year, which probably continued to the fact that he wasn't even in the MVP talk on 1992 after having a basically identical season to 1991. He was first team all pro in 90 and 91 then only pro bowl in 92 and 93 (although by the end of 93 and beyond his numbers started declining) I disagree with your assessment that Kelly wasn't as dominant or talented as Thomas. Kelly ran the offense, called the audibles, and overall carried them along with Reed and Thomas year after year. Smith I'm going to agree with. He was just on another level. Thomas and Kelly are top 15-20 all time at their position, deserving HoF players. Smith is in the conversation as best DE of all time, top5 hands down and valid argument made for #1, and a top10 all time defensive player when you include all positions, maybe even top5. Anyway overall I agree with you, I just think Kelly was as important and dominant as Thomas overall, although Thurman probably had a higher peak, but Kelly's was longer.

Kb has yet another knee surgery. He can want to "ball out" yet be unable. I'm not sure what your point on Richie is. We lost him. He's no longer on the team. It doesn't matter if he "walked away" , left as a FA, or was sent to Mars. He's gone, lost, off the roster, whatever, he's not here. The oline looks to be worse, that's all there is to it. Will it be a dumpster fire? Who knows. I'd love to be proven wrong. How do we know AJ will not be somebody who holds the ball and gets sacked? I'm a well documented detractor of Tyrod, I'm glad he's gone, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking we signed Brett Favre or Dan Marino in their primes. We signed a career backup who nobody wanted, who performed okay at best with an all star receiving corps. He was just handed the keys to one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. I'd love him to be an improvement over last year, but I'm just not too optimistic about it. The defense will be very good, I'm very happy about that, but as somebody said before, adding Murphy, star, Edmunds, and Phillips, then replacing Gaines with Davis, isn't suddenly turning us into the legion of boom. Davis, as good as he might be, is coming off a down year after a bad injury. Murphy is coming off a bad injury as well. Being optimistic is fine. Being unrealistically optimistic is being a homer.

Except they haven't. They are inconsistant at best. An "excellent pass catcher" would be, you know, consistent at catching the ball, you know, all the time, in a consistent fashion. Calling you a homer for, you know, acting like a homer, is just being factual imo. You're refusing to acknowledge that the wr corps is bottom tier, and acting like our offense is anything but a question mark at best, and more than likely not going to be very good (yes, miracles happen, but all signs point to them not being very good on offense again).

KB is the best WR on the team. That is not saying much. Zay is definitely a wild card. I'm hoping he gets over whatever causes him to not be able to catch anything last year. Kerley is a reliable slot at best. the TE's are inconsistent at best, I would not call them "excellent pass catchers"

I agree with Shady being the focal point of the offense is a good thing for a young QB, having a stud RB helps to lessen the "you need to do EVERYTHING" mentality that a lot of the high 1st round picks wind up thrown into. The issue is the "question marks" aren't along the lines of "we traded for Randy Moss and signed Nate Solder" they are "we picked up a few 5th and 6th round receivers, and a couple of castoff FA's from other teams and are hoping they are average at best". Agreed. My point was since he wasn't an agile speedster to begin with, another knee surgery most likely makes him even slower and less agile than he was before, although the flip side is he won't be hurt as much as say, a guy like Sammy or Harvin, having multiple hip injuries, since they are speedsters.

I was talking about this in the defense review thread. KB wasn't all that much of a speedster or agile before the billionth knee surgery he had this offseason.

Saying "they might not be done" is not a reflection of the current roster of pass catchers, which is garbage at best. It is definitely down there, and I'm not sure how it will not be. KB had another knee surgery, which doesn't bode well for a guy who wasn't a speedster to begin with. Hopefully we do get better by changing our QB, but that's a big if. I see a regression on offense, with a good shot to the future with JA.

You can't read, can you? HE HAD YET ANOTHER KNEE SURGERY. So yes, I am counting on him to be worse than last year. We have a bottom 5 WR corps in the league. That's not even debatable. To think that they are anything but bottom barrel is just completely lost. You're "not talking about the QBs" because you know you have no leg to stand on. Complete unknown, and MOST LIKELY regression, based on the fact that rookies almost never perform well their first season, and AJ played average at best throwing to Green, Sanu and Eifert when he actually did start. Your Oline argument is serviceable at best, we lost our 3 best players, period. That's what happened. We replaced them with nobodies who MIGHT be okay. So, yes, you are a homer.

-"offensive linemen can be replaced" . good . I understand this. HAVE they been replaced? NO they have not. Thus, this unit is most likely a downgrade from last year. -"who did we lose at WR from last year to this year" . i said they are a "dumpster fire" just like they were last year, but KB had knee surgery, again, thus he's most likely going to be worse. -i concur the defense will be better -you ignored everything I said about the QB's because it didn't fit your answer. If you think the offense was anything but a tire fire last year, and think that a few late round pick WRs, a couple of castoff FA WRs, an offensive line that lost 3 starters and replaced them with nobody, and a QB situation that is wholly unproven is anything but a downgrade for this upcoming season, then yes, you are a "homer"

I don't think a single person who is "down" on the Bills this year thinks it's because of the defense. It's been gone over a hundred times why people are concerned. Our wide receivers are a dumpster fire. Our Oline lost it's 3 best players this offseason, and replaced them with pretty much nobody. Our QB situation, while improved dramatically for the future, is a big ?? this upcoming season, seeing as AJM has very limited starting experience, and when he did start, was throwing to AJ green, Mohammad Sanu, and Tyler Eifert, which is dramatically better than our receivers, so it's hard to get a good read on what he's capable of, and JA looks to be the real deal to me, but even if he is amazing, rookie QB's rarely if ever fare well at first, so there will be plenty of growing pains. Many of us who are "down" on the Bills this year foresee it because we are objectively looking at the offense, seeing that it has a good future, and not being a homer and lying to ourselves that this unit is anything but an immediate downgrade from last year.

I was being sarcastic. I'm glad trashrod is gone.

Agreed Kb isn't very good though. His knees are most likely shot. Zay could be good, but as of now he couldn't catch a cold in Siberia. The rest are unknowns, but most likely subpar. I'm trying to be optimistic lol

Sorry. You're right. Tyrod is the greatest QB in the league and we are idiots to have gotten rid of him. (sarcasm)

Glad the phone's okay! I remember that thread. I think it was his speculation too, but I'm not sure if I remember the reasoning. It's obvious that Rosen was below Allen in their eyes, since they drafted Allen ahead of Rosen. Allen may have been their #1, 2 or 3 though. We will never know. Rudolph could have been behind Rosen and Jackson too for all we know. I honestly think that the personality stuff mattered to an extent, but much less so than the physical stuff (injury concerns namely), as well as the physical measurable such as release time, ball velocity, etc.

The team scoring was not "tyrod scoring". Their running games were quite a bit better, especially near the goal line, in 2015 and 2016 vs 2017. 2015 they were #12 in points and #13 in yards #1 rushing game in NFL in 2015 (#1 in yards, tds, YPC), yet #28th in passing yards, 20th in TDs, but #12 in YPA Mccoy had 900 yards in 12 games (or a 1300 yards pace), Williams and Gillislee combined for about 800 yards, and Tyrod again had 568 yards on over 100 carries. 2016 they were #10 in points and #16 in yards #1 rushing game in NFL in 2016 (#1 yards, tds, YPC), yet #30th in passing yards and #27 in passing TDs and YPA. hmmm. McCoy had almost 1300 yards, 577 for Gillislee and 580 for Taylor (who ran the ball 95 times that year) so yeah, Taylor can run. It seems to me that their passing offense was trash 2015, 2016, and 2016. Even in 2017 their run game was #6 in yards, but #15 in TD and #14 in YPC Their passing game sunk even worse #31 yards, #27 TD, #27 YPA Their decrease in points scored seems to be more an indication of what they did with the running game vs the passing game, which was not very good any of his 3 years as a starter. Kelly led the team to back to back 400+ (i think 428 and 458) point seasons He also was a top 7 points scored offense leader for 5 or 6 years in a row. 1998 bills with Flutie had 400 points and 328 points (#7 and #16) Anyway, rather than look at the total points let's look at the NFL rank, because top points changes year in year out with the rule changes/etc. Tyrod led the team mostly through his rushing, but had some deep passing success in 2015 as evidenced by his #12 in YPA. His value was in his running game though, so let's stop acting like he was the second coming of Kelly at QB because he ran a gimmick offense to #12 and #10 in points through a very strong running game.