BringBackOrton

This team has experienced "learning" like the Oakland game for years. Will they ever get the lesson?

Pats, Jets, Ravens, .5 of Dolphins and .5 of Raiders.

3 maybe 4.

That's just not true, he said this from the start. I followed this debate closely, mostly because I was very torn on how I felt about Shady heading into 2016. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/183856-shining-a-light-on-shady/?p=3825131 Here's a link to a post in December 2015, prior to any resurgence of McCoy. "The improvement is McCoy's to make." During this whole saga, I found many throwaway lines about how BADOL's opinion was that it was not likely, or that he didn't think McCoy could come back. The wiggle room was presented from the start, from what I saw. Does this make him any less wrong? Of course not. But I think you are mischaracterizing his argument due to the presentation. Which is understandable, considering the tone he uses.

The Bills may disagree.

We haven't had middle of the pack at best in 20 years.

Why not? It's a discussion board.

Because QB's are the scarcest position in the NFL and also the most important? Apples to orangutans when compared to Byrd and like.

How so? Like I said, he already admitted his "McCoy is done and going to be out of the league next year," take was incorrect. He admitted he's having a great year. Can he no longer comment on McCoy without it being a continuation of a different argument that is all but over? Just because he was wrong about McCoy being done doesn't mean he's wrong about the contract. They are separate topics.

Tim Graham was right. If we drafted Teddy or Carr, we wouldn't be in this mess. EJ was wrong.

QB isn't good enough to win without a top 5 defense. Any vet QB can win with a top 5 defense (see a dead Peyton Manning/Brocketship, Kyle Orton). Dump the coach unable to coach a top 5 defense. Dump the overpaid QB unable to win without it for someone who may be better than a cheap vet/backup.

Pros: -Yes -kiko trade was offered by a drunk Chip, props for Hughes -tried to re-sign Byrd and Spiller for gross numbers, just not as gross as the dopey Saints -both solid signings but more dumb luck than anything, also has had his share of no brainer blunders, Chris Williams over Incognito in 2014 Cons: Agreed.

Because we're already seeing the wins pile up with them as owners. Well, offseason wins...

I think he admitted he was wrong about his drastic McCoy takes and softened them a bit, but that's just from where I'm standing.

So if Whaley gives Aaron Murray or some other late round QB a chance to win the job next season, you'd still say he's doing a great job of drafting to address the QB position?

Lack of leadership. another nail in his coffin.

Even if that was true (which is really hasn't shown to be), how do justify a GM spending a solitary 4th rounder in 3 years on a team with no franchise QB? And then, if you do hold Whaley accountable for EJ, it's even more damning.

When you have such a big lead and are losing momentum, someone needs to step up and stop the bleeding. Whether it's TT needing to stand in there and rally his guys to sustaining a drive, or a defensive playmaker making something happen, or the coaches to dial up something crazy, it needed to happen. The Bills failed to rally themselves, and they spiraled out of control. And that's the biggest problem with that loss, Aaron Williams or no. I recall a game, 2 to 3 years ago. The Bills were dominating the Dolphins everywhere but the scoreboard for the majority of the game. But, the Bills didn't have as big of a lead as they probably should've and the Phins were creeping back, gaining some momentum. That's when Jerry Hughes showed up, forced a strip sack, and put our boot on their necks and ended the game. We needed that on Sunday, from anybody. Not just nexessaily a defender. And we got crickets and a meltdown. In the biggest moments, everybody came up short.

He was in the NFL.

Sorry, Was editing.

You're missing the point. The bottom line is that the Bills were good enough to upset the Raiders. They showed it with the first 3 Q's. And they choked it away because of a lack of leadership, a failure by the coaches, a weak mentality, and an overall culture problem. It goes beyond talent at this point.

Why don't we look at their record since Luck's been playing.

0-16 to 10-6 in 3 years is a huge feat, IMO. Would say he's one of those coaches where overall record doesn't tell the whole story.

No dude. A year of tape is what hurt Tyrod. Very frustrating. Would've been worse if he never even saw it and instead checked to McCoy, so I'm trying to give him some credit for an early ball.

Agreed. I thought you were commenting on the wide open WR on the opposite side of the field.