BringBackOrton

You could make that argument if you wanted to be wrong. Dareus and Mario are/were top 5 at their positions, and Gilmore was top 10. Hughes and Richie are closer to good than great.

What blue chip players did Whaley acquire that were better than Nix's blue chip players? Dareus, Mario and Gilmore are 3 players that are better than any trio that Doug ever acquired. We would've been better off keeping Buddy.

Another fabled Doug Whaley pick, the "best backup LT in the league with tremendous trade value" that cost us an early 2nd rounder in the deepest draft in recent memory. About to have zero player from 2013 and 2014 drafts combined unless Sammy doesn't hate us already.

He's making less than TJ Yates. Surprised to see some EJ guys still dying on whatever hill you're dying on. A good team signed him as a camp body for peanuts/to make Connor Cook feel good about himself. Hooray.

EJ is making less and has less job security than TJ Yates. Give it up.

Sure it can. Especially when it isn't the same argument.

He never smiled in pictures.

!Edasurc

I was referring to their other point. Like they both said, you can arrive at a good result with a poor process. Why terminate contracts and risk losing guys before your new GM could decide he wants them back? It was a risk that had no reward. Whether or not it worked out was immaterial.

Hall of Fame should be decided more by the stat sheet than Wall of Fame. Kyle is a lock, I think. I'm hopeful for Fred.

I guess it depends on who you ask.

I'm sorry, but I don't find your opinion that McD thinks Tyrod is the future is a reasonable one. I'm not calling you an idiot. Everyone has unreasonable opinions. Some guy said that he'd take Karlos over Zeke. That's his opinion. He defended it. I found it unreasonable.

I hope one day when we're referencing Sammy's toughness, it won't be a play from 5 years ago.

Museums are next, if they aren't already being taken down. Since the Vietnam Memorial, you !@#$ing idiot.

I'm not wishing for another Brady.

Holy smokes, I don't think you could intentionally miss the point more.

Those are separate issues. I root for the laundry. If TT is suiting up on Sunday, I root for him to play like Brady. But that doesn't mean on Monday I believe he is.

I agree on all fronts here. Except the TT crowd shares some left over EJers. I can easily see not wanting to walk away from TT, but I would've liked to see meaningful competition NOW. If you aren't sure he's your guy, keep bringing in guys.

Huh?

Ridiculous. No better than ISIS.

And if they are found to be false, what happens? A footnote in page 8 to take back the headlines is sufficient, amirite?

It wasn't exactly insulting to take $15M. If the Bills didn't think that he had at least a chance they would have let him walk. Instead they gave him a prove it deal with the opportunity to prove it. Tyrod, knowing the system, bet on himself. Lots of QBs have done this with varying degrees of success. Flacco and Cousins seem to be the best examples of guys who've succeeded doing it. A chance at what? Improving? Of course he has a chance, they just weren't willing to bet on it. Neither am I. They gave him a prove it deal, but they had to get him to give up the "I'm proven" deal, which speaks to how they feel about TT. A large point of contention in this topic, but I think we're on the same page here. And that's the key difference between the case of TT and Flacco/Cousins. Neither of those guys were forced into taking paycuts to "prove" it. It's not like he's making $1M, I agree, but it is a significant paycut and an expression of their confidence in him as a player going forward. Tyrod isn't for everyone but with his QBR, TD:INT ratio and offensive DVOA rankings under him he will be a starter in the NFL for the near future. His numbers stack up favorably to Tannehill, Smith and (gasp) Flacco since he took over. Those guys you can win with but don't win because of. Sure, that's fine. Even with all those numbers, TT felt that the Bills would let him walk if he didn't take a paycut. Again, speaking volumes to not only how the Bills felt about him, but what TT, his camp, and his agent believed. Again, a large point of contention in this topic. And I think Flacco streakiness is underrated, just IMO. His week to week ceiling is higher than the other three. I'm not sure what EJ has to do with any of this. I could stack the 2 resumes side-by-side and ask you where you are seeing the similarities but don't want to waste either of our time. The EJ supporters were delusional. The Tyrod supporters aren't delusional. No one believes that he is great (if you are seeing those claims feel free to share). The Tyrod supporters believe that it is really, really hard to find QB play that you can win with. He provided that. The detractors think that you need QB play that you can win because of. I don't think anyone is opposed to upgrading but there are different beliefs on how easy that is to do. The detractors have convinced themselves that you can throw a rock and get what TT provides. The supporters quickly dispel that using comparison and stats. They are delusional about different things. No one thought EJ was "great" either, and they were still delusional. I'm not talking about guys like you, who believe TT is good enough with a team around him, that's subjective and arguable. I'm talking about guys who say things like, "McDermott thinks TT is the QB of the future," or overreact to every single slight to their favorite QB, real or imagined. It's delusion, plain and simple, and it's tiring. It isn't similar in any way to the EJ scenario. There weren't any signs pointing to EJ ever becoming the guy. Tyrod will either take the job and run with it, regress and be released or be a similar type player leaving this debate raging on. The most likely scenario is the 3rd. Agreed, which is why dying on a hill to support scenario #1 or 2 is foolish and delusional. The gross numbers will look better because the attempts will go up in this scheme. As someone that doesn't care (at all) about passing yards I won't be impressed. It's the yards per attempt, red zone & 3rd down efficiency and turnovers that I care about. I expect those to remain fairly steady with the TDs and INTs rising because of the increased attempts. Anyone expecting something different is basing that on the side of the argument that they've chosen to hitch their wagon to. We may get different results but we should expect what we've seen. Maybe they will and maybe they won't. I'm not entirely convinced attempts will rise that meaningfully. What I can say is that player evaluation is subjective. Some folks may be warmer or colder depending on the player. I had no problem with the folks who were warmer on EJ than me. The problem lay on the people who were red hot on EJ when it wasn't truly warranted. I feel we see a similar situation ongoing now. If you think TT is "good enough" to hang onto, build around, and hope for some breaks to make a run, I think you have some good evidence to support that stance. If you think the Bills think that TT is the QB of the future, and that "there's no reason he can't improve," and he's bordering on irreplaceable, I think that's absurd. And it paints other topics, too. The greatest pushback on drafting QB's or QB prospects on TBD historically have always been the chief, vocal supporters of one of the incumbent QB's. The EJ supporters hated the idea of drafting Carr because of the implication. The JP and Trent guys and etc etc. Am I supposed to believe that all of the pushback from drafting a QB in the 2016 and 2017 classes (three of whom went in the top 12) was not painted by any TT bias? Especially when some of the most vocal TT supporters were EJ guys to the last? That's what I contend with. I think there are great opinions (mainly the ones I agree with), solid opinions, and bad opinions. Believing that the Bills view TT as the QB of the future falls in the third category to me.

The debate never ends because it's conflated. Almost all posters have accepted that TT is our starter in 2017, and yet this point is brought up over and over. More importantly is TT's role beyond 2017. GunnerBill painted the 3 most logical scenarios, which I'm not sure anyone could argue with. The bottom line is that no matter your personal opinion, TT, his advisers, and his agent all agreed the Bills might have moved on if he didn't take a pay cut, and that it was a smarter move to take a pay cut rather than test FA. There have been increasingly fantastic and incredible reasons for "why" Taylor did what he did, but the most simple and logical relates to the money. I contend this is the most likely scenario based on what we know about the NFL. Any contentions to the contrary, like "McD secretly likes Taylor as a franchise QB but played hardball to cut his paycheck," is wild speculation based on very little. After all, if TT and his camp all thought the Bills weren't bluffing, with them having access to far more information, including market value and other factors, than us casual fans do, why should we believe the opposite of them? Like most "Pro-TT" arguments, it seems a stretch. They are welcome to their opinions, but they argue, in my mind, the 25% having equal odds as the 75%. That's why language like "inarguable" is used. IMO, it's inarguable that it's more likely that TT has peaked as an NFL QB. Does that mean he absolutely 100% cannot? Of course not. Does that mean there's an equal chance he can improve or plateau? No. Just like EJ, there was a minute chance the light turned on. There still is, in Oakland. And yet a contingent of fans took it upon themselves to defend that minute chance with their lives. Just like the TT contingent.

Are the Celtics even trying? What a horrible postseason.

Just because those teams have down seasons doesn't mean they won't beat us. We lost to the 4-12 Falcons, the mediocre Chargers and Saints etc etc.