BringBackOrton

You ever read something and have that involuntary "oh no" visceral response? This is it. When they came for the...

Everyone has a right to be wrong.

Except for being wrong.

Remember when gator said standing Presidents get credit for all good things that happen under their term? Oh wait, that was just Obama.

I'm saying drawing lazy conclusions to other QB's is lazy and silly.

Yes, and Vince Young was way more mobile than Allen. You can play that silly game all day long.

Tyrod wishes he had Josh Allen's arm talent.

Who broke every single FA and trade for the Bills this offseason? Hint: Not Vic, or Tim Graham.

I just don't see the difference between 1 and zero, when the national guys have broken the last couple 100.

That makes one story 4 years ago. That's kinda the point.

The only story I can think of in the last 5 years that TG broke was the Russ Brandon story. I'm not sure Vic has had anything notable in the last decade. JW struggles to "break" stories due to the rigorous standards of the AP, but that's the price you pay for guaranteed quality journalism.

All metrics in regards to football are fallible. But Tyrod's low yardage games are a simple way to exemplify how ineffective he was for large stretches.

That's from a different era. Metta's track record for breaking accurate stories is actually not great, and I'm not familiar with Cabbott's work. I am quite confident that even with a few exceptions worth mentioning, almost zero local guys in all markets have stories before Schefter and the gang get them with any sort of consistency, for reasons posted above.

Stories are almost never broken by local media in any market, because agents are one of the main sources and they all have relationships with the National guys.

This is fair and I don't disagree. I just think draft pick "hits" have to be based on the quality of player you get, and a higher quality player is a better hit than a lesser one.

No, just regular old expectations. That list of players you mentioned wasn't just "not all Whaley guys," only ONE of them were Whaley guys. And Schwartz was hired by his HC, Doug Marrone.

Orton Tyrod Fitz Bledsoe Everybody else Thad Lewis EJ This is the correct list. Hey Dawk, people think Brad Smith was a crappy WR, but he was probably the best WR who could throw the football in the league! Folks are just clouded by their obsessions for WR's who catch the football, not throw it!

I answered. No. I take your opinions on slights against Buffalo with the entirety of Bonneville, tbh.

Every? How about one star?

Interesting. Because Woods wasn't good enough to be anything more than a decent #2 option WR. Brown was a deficient slow MLB who was a liability in pass coverage. Darby was a CB who could either play incredible or get embarrassed on a week to week basis. Kiko was an undersized MLB who had 6 good games, fell off the map, tore an ACL again and is a rotational player on his 3rd team in 5 years. Watkins was a star potential WR with maturity issues, who made a target of himself in the media, couldn't stay healthy, was traded to ANOTHER team that couldn't use him and is now on HIS third team in 4 years. John Miller is the definition of a low ceiling OG who had a decent rookie campaign and has lost his job to Vlad Ducasse. Shaq is a perpetual first round disappointment, who can't rush the passer, can't stay healthy, and missed almost a whole year due to Whaley incorrectly assessing his shoulder. Ragland is a scheme specific old school MLB, who again, is a slow liability against the pass, and was sold to the lowest bidder. So tell me, Gug, @Kirby Jackson, THESE are the gems of Whaley's drafting career? Picks in the top 3 rounds who are mostly flawed rotational players at best, and downright trash at worst? These are the players who were "good enough?" I'll have what you're having.

You are being obtuse on purpose, because I know you agree with me, but feel the need to cite that silly statistic. We ALWAYS talk about how the best players to draft are players with high ceilings, because superstars are how you win in the NFL. One superstar players is BETTER than 3 decent starters. Always has been, always will be. You know that, but refuse to use that philosophy against Whaley, who drafted 6 or 7 decent guys over 4 drafts but never ONE SINGLE STAR. Whaley was a lame duck GM overseeing a fired scouting deparment. McD made the picks and was the acting GM at the time. So no, I will not give Whaley credit as a GM for those picks for the purpose of this discussion. Also, "it's easier to get good players as a bad team," yet Whaley was picking in the top 10 in the 2013 and 2014 draft and got ZERO stars in the first three rounds (Watkins is debateable to most, I actually will give Whaley half credit on him.) McD shows up and trades back to pick #27 in 2017 and drafted a better individual player than Whaley drafted in 4 years. This is not debateable. Do you think McD would trade Tre White for Woods, Goodwin and Preston Brown straight up? No, of course not because STARS ARE WHAT MATTERS IN THE NFL, NOT GOOD ROLE PLAYERS, which you already know. Whaley found a couple bargain bin guys that ended up pleasant surprises. McD and Nix had slam dunk draft picks on STARS. End of story. I wouldn't trade Tre White for 20 Preston Browns. Neither would you. So don't tell me that Whaley is this mythical GM with one of the best drafting track records, because it's just. not. true.

Whaley didn't draft a ton of players that suck, and all it got him was a below .500 record as GM. Because he didn't draft any really good players either. 0fer on ProBowlers. Tre White is a better pick than literally everyone Whaley took. Teams would be lining up to trade Woods, Goodwin, Kiko and Brown for Tre. And those were Whaley's "gems." LOL

2017 had McD's final say on Whaley's board, so I will not give him credit for those. The bolded are above average role players. 53 Woods, Kikos and Browns are not championship contenders. There's a ton of starter quality players in the NFL. Whaley got a ton of players with high floors and low ceilings. That's not a winning formula. Being the 40th best player on your roster doesn't make you good.

First, second and third round picks are still high picks. Whaley's track record on those is....poor.

For the purpose of this discussion, I am making a clear demarcation of 2010-2013 as Nix, and 2013-2016 as Whaley. As director of Pro Personnel under Nix, it is hard to say exactly how much influence he had on each pick. I do realize he was a instrumental FO guy in those Nix years, but I am just comparing them as active GM's. I tend to give Whaley credit/blame for 2013 as most people in the know have stated Nix was basically retired at that point and Whaley was the guy. I think the stories of Whaley being "convinced" on Rex were part of a concerted effort to distance himself from that blunder after the fact. If Whaley is as astute of a football guy as they claim, he would've recognized Rex was doomed by the end of 2015. I was one of the earliest posters wanting him fired and wanting the bandaid ripped off after 2015, because of how much of a disappointment he was. Listen, Whaley drafted some decent dudes, I know the record of JAGs still in the NFL. But they were just JAGs. None of them are stars. A whole bunch of good role players gets you to 8-8. See above.