GunnerBill

I get that. But you are still conflating pre-meditation with intention. They are not the same.

Of course. But this isn't just another example of where that happened. This is not one from the bottle. It is an outlier.

But he wasn't taking a piss poor angle. As @Rochesterfan has said. He had a perfectly reasonable angle to enable him to make a play. He adjusts his angle so that he can ensure the hit is more vicious. You are giving way too much benefit of the doubt because you don't want to think a player would behave that way. But he absolutely did. He intended to hurt Trevor Lawrence. He should (and I think will) face the full force of NFL discipline.

It doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to the moment he starting adjusting his attack angle to Lawrence does he think "I'm gonna hurt him here" and he absolutely does. Or else why adjust your angle, lead with the forearm and launch at the contact point?

I'm sorry if that us your bar for intent you are misunderstanding the word. You do not need the level of pre-determination that you are talking about to have intent. He doesn't need to have intended to hurt Lawrence before the game for that hit to be intentional. That is an entirely spurious argument. Yep. I am watching the exact same thing you are. Not sure what anyone arguing otherwise is watching. The decision to change angle, the decision to raise and lead with the forearm and the decision to launch towards the QB are all intentional decisions. Decisions he made with the intention to hurt Lawrence.

Turned around and tucked it.

That is a fumble. He tucks it away. That is a football move.

It was a stupid comment. I actually don't think Collinsworth and Tirico were very good last night. But all things considered they are still the best of the big five booths for me. And so to contradict @Simon's statement one of the things I look forward to the most when I tune into SNF is the quality of the announcing. I find at least one half of all the other A teams insufferable.

His coach said that hit is "not what we coach". He looked and sounded frankly embarrassed by it. It is as close as I think a coach go to accepting that his guy made a dirty hit. Nobody is arguing he is targetting every single Quarterback by the way. That is not the bar for determining intent.

There are. And almost none of them are dirty. In fact I struggle to think of another that genuinely when I looked at a replay I thought "he has meant that". But this one, he meant it. Not a doubt in my mind. Yep. He adjusts his angle, raises his forearm and launches. If he'd done one of the three, sure I'm at "that's just football man". When a player does all 3? Yea. He meant that.

No because the opportunity doesn't exist if he slides 2 yards earlier. For it to be intentional it doesn't require him to have decided pre snap that he is going to try and take Lawrence's head off. At the moment he sees Lawrence start to slide and the opportunity arise his intention is "hurt him here". It is clear as day when you watch the way he adjusts his approach and launches. I'd be on your side on this if we were looking at any other play I have seen this season. But that was not a normal football play. That was a player intentionally seeking to hurt an oppponent when the opportunity arose to do so. Well I haven't played competitive football but I have played competitive soccer to a pretty good standard and trust me when you are about to fly into a 50:50 challenge your brain has plenty of time to decide what your priorities in that challenge are.

Watch it again. This is not a guy flying at full speed out of control. He slows up, adjusts and then launches forearm first as he sees Trevor slide. I think you are guilty of not wanting to think a player would do that do giving them the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't deserve it. That was 100% intentional. It was 100% dirty.

This is exactly what happened. He isn't flying full speed to make a tackle he sees the slide start, then raises his forearm and launches himself. 100% intentional.

There is not a single doubt in my mind he had intent to injure there. Not a one. I almost never think that about NFL hits. But I do on that play. He knew 100% what he was doing. It was designed to hurt an opponent.

Intentional cheap shot from a player with past form. He looks right at Trevor's head as he is flying in and decides at that point to lead with a forearm. Rarely do I see an NFL hit that actually angers me because I think it was dirty and designed to injure. But that one was IMO. Disgraceful.

I don't think Schopp is negative these days. I like the afternoon show and I listen to it a lot in podcast form on my commutes. He has been a "McDermott should get more love for coach of the year" guy and when they had their blip earlier in the year was still like "they are good, they are going to make the playoffs." Haven't listened to today - I listen to them a day behind but I know he is a bit of a "we are making the playoffs that is where it counts" guy. He talks about it being "how New England lived" a lot. Where your seasons really only live out in January.

Not a leader. When McDermott says "you don't get this everywhere" he is right. I know there are people here who think leadership and culture are nice concepts but don't matter. They do. In all team sports.

They have historically played a fair bit of man, but less so this year. Chris Shula is their DC these days.

Nobody got off blocks first half against the run. 2nd half Bernard did much better and they brought Rapp down into the box more and we stiffened a little. Our DTs were bad. Especially Ed and Phillips.

I think there is some recency bias this morning after yesterday that believes the Steelers O is better than it is. The Bengals D sucks. I don't think there is any way Russ marches them up and down the field on consecutive playoff teams. So are they a threat to pull an upset and knock off a Bills or a Chiefs or a Ravens in a one off matchup? Sure. But can they win 4 post season games and hoist a Lombardi? Not for me.

I don't include the Steelers. I do think the Chiefs are in it (though I agree it feels like it is someome else's year) and I still give a squeak in the NFC to the Packers.

I did not know that. Interesting.

Of course and when their trolling falls flat they disappear.

Said it before but that Colts America's Game keeps coming to mind. Almost the last thing Dungy says on that episode "this was not our most talented team, but it was our best one."

I think that is one way of looking at where the Bills were at. But it was also legitimate, as Tirico and Collinsworth discussed on the broadcast to look at a team that lost a ton of leadership and core guys. And I don't think many of the talking heads who didn't pick us to win the division thought we were gonna be a sub .500 team. Maybe one or two did but I think the majority just thought this was a 9 or 10 win team and that might not be a division title. That shouldn't be that controversial, there were plenty of our own fans here he thought the same. Personally I always thought we would win the division and 11 wins was kind of our floor as long as Josh stayed healthy. As for the trusting Woody Johnson point, I agree on that. That was what I was saying in the post you replied to. Their bigger mistake was over valuing the Dolphins and Jets. I was always of the view the Dolphins would take a step back. Their defense is a mishmash at the moment, they lost their best defensive lineman, they lost two starters off an average at best oline and I don't believe in their coach as a leader. He can design and call an offense, but that does not a Head Coach make. I thought the Jets had potential to put it all together but I was sceptical because I know who Aaron Rodgers is. The chances of him genuinely buying in to this group and not turning it into the Rodgers show were always slim IMO. So trusting either of those teams to displace the Bills was the mistake. Neither of them had the sort of solid foundations on which success is built. And while it is true that sometimes in the NFL teams have lightening in a bottle seasons without those foundations, doesn't feel like a wise bet to make when picking division winners pre-season.