GunnerBill

Simple answer to that - no, he wasn't.

Yea. Dorian wouldn't see it if you ran it 5 times straight. If he can play run and hit football he is a playmaker. If you make him think after the snap he is screwed. For sure better means more than physically better.

I think you are slightly talking past each other. What I think @Mr. WEO is saying is impossible is getting Shakir 160 targets. And I sort of agree with him. Could you just throw it at him 160 times to prove a point? Sure. Could you actually find 160 occasions during the season to target him in a way that is going to help the offense? No, I don't think you could. His skillset simply isn't well rounded enough to do that.

Was clear with Bishop last year IMO. He was out of position so often his teammates did not trust him and it was affecting how they played their own responsibilities.

I can't really comment on Kelly but I think Josh's understanding pre-snap has really come on under Brady (because the offense requires it more of him). However there is no way right now I'd let Josh Allen call the entire game. He gets too amped up at times as it is and I think he'd call his own number every play because he thinks he is the best player on the field. And he is right. But you can't win in the NFL that way. I understand by way of anecdote that maybe Kelly was guilty of that in SBXXV too. But I think generally he must have been pretty good at it.

And yet there were games almost a full 12 months later where Dorian Williams still resembled a spinning top, despite playing a ton of football in Milano's absence in the meantime. The very same Chiefs abused him in week 11 and the Ravens embarrassed him twice last season. His best game as a Bill, by far, was Jacksonville in week 3 and far from that being a catalyst for improvement it now looks like a swallow that didn't sniff a summer. I think we are close to the point where we have to admit his play recognition skills are not where they need to be and his understanding of the defense is a problem (and I liked Dorian coming out).

I don't think Tre is a lock for the roster. If Hairston looks good and wins the job and Tre is struggling I think them deciding they want to keep and invest in the young guys as depth is a possibility and Tre would be potentially available later in the year. That is what we have seen happen across the NFL with the new practice squad rules. But if Hairston struggles and they are not sure about throwing him out there I am 95% sure it will be Tre, even if pre-season is rough, because they know what Tre White on a football field in this defense looks like. Probably 5% it would be Dane. I think Strong and Ingram are pretty much 0% shots to start week 1 in the absence, of course, of injuries ahead of them. I am not putting a huge amount of stock on him running with the 1s in June or his June performances. I am putting stock in what the Bills want and believe in from their corners. And the Benford situation is not analogous. Benford was competing with a fellow rookie - Elam. There was no vet alternative. In the end I think they both played week 1 from memory because Dane was out and then Dane came in week 2 and they went to a job share (slanted initially in Benford's favour) at CB2. Favours the vet over the rookie IF ALL ELSE IS EQUAL. Just to be absolutely clear. If a rookie is better he plays. They have started a ton of rookies early. The ones they haven't have generally not been good. Cook and Bernard the two exceptions and Bernard was not better as a rookie than Edmunds so that kinda made sense.

Was a kid name Billy Jones. Fast as lightening but erractic movement and technique. I thought he was too raw and let him go. I re-signed him 6 months later. But I might have won an extra title in the meantime had I kept him. Oh well.

Maybe. I admit I hate mental mistakes as well. It is, as someone who has coached, the most infuriating and frustrating thing that happens in a sporting contest. My view is lean towards the rookie until they repeat the mistake. At the point you have to pull them unless everything else they are doing is clearly outperforming the vet. Very occasionally you miss that way. Im my soccer coaching I can immediately think of one guy I definitely pulled the plug too early on and regretted. But I can think of a ton more where my instinct was 100% correct.

I think he probably does. I reject the "he doesn't trust rookies". If they are better they play. I can't think of a single rookie he has sat who later we went "okay maybe he should have played" maybe Cook > Singletary as a rookie. But if there are ties I do think he tends towards experience. He hates mental mistakes more than he hates the guys just being out "athleted" (not a word I know).

I can see that, but I don't think that is about longevity which was more my issue with your original post. It is about the sum of the whole (ie. the pairing) being greater than the sum of the parts. And I do get that. Personally I always thought Poyer was the more impactful playmaker but possibly because he knew he could take a risk or two because Hyde would always be in position to cover him.

Poyer wasn't here long enough? He was here 8 years and was brilliant for 7 of them!

I have seen reports that his final day of mini camp was much better. There are only two candidates to start opposite Benford. They are Hairston and White. They obviously want Hairston to win that battle. We all do. If he doesn't and Tre is healthy then Tre would play.

Agree. We need better corner play at CB2 now than we did when we had peak Hyde and Poyer.

No I watched a dreadful Detroit - Buffalo pre-season game 😜

Not beyond week 1 of camp he didn't. They narrowed it down to Bernard v Dodson quite quickly once camp came. The same might happen to Tre but by all reports he had a better day yesterday. And he probably has more credit in the bank than AJ Klein did. And of course they want Hairston to emerge as the starter. That is what we all hope happens.

I was trying to think who'd make my list (fan since 2002). I was trying to balance pure ability with importance to and impact on the franchise. 1. Josh Allen 2. Kyle Williams 3. Stefon Diggs 4. Mario Williams 5. Tre White 6. Dion Dawkins 7. Aaron Schobel 8. Matt Milano 9. Jordan Poyer 10. Jason Peters 11. Fred Jackson 12. Taeko Spikes 13. Micah Hyde 14. LeSean McCoy 15. London Fletcher Honestly the top 4 are easy for me. Josh speaks for himself. Kyle Williams was Mr Buffalo Bills for so long and epitomised the team's fight back to relevance. Then the next two are the two proven elite level superstars the Bills have been able to bring in during my fandom. I went back and forth then on 5 and 6. I ended up with Tre at 5 because at his peak he was elite and a first team all pro over Dion's durability and consistent excellence at that level just below the elite tackles. After that.... I could take an argument about the rest of my order. That is very subjective. The two guys that just missed out were Gilmore (who I think was a great player for the Bills but not necessarily a great Bill and didn't make a big impact) and Lee Evans who was a good player for a reasonable period.

Essentially you are asking to buy me out of my Bills fandom. Not because I am only in it for the winning, no Bills fan could be accused of that. But because it is the hope that makes it worth it. What do I value my Bills fandom at? Honestly? You'd have to be talking 7 figures. Needs to be never work again money.

The guy I have always said Shakir reminds me of is Ekeler at 27 he was a dynamic dual threat running back putting up 900 rushing and 700 receiving. Two years later he was no more than a return guy. He had a simiar low centre of gravity, try and spin out of every tackle, style as Shakir in the pass game.

Yea that is the point in the boundary thing. It's not an issue until it is. You can beat 75% of this league within minimal boundary threat. But when it comes to it against the best teams and the best coaches they are going to force you to beat them outside if they don't think you can. It's classic Belichick. I'm going to take away what you do well and make you beat me another way and if you do, fair play to you.

I wouldn't. He is toast that is burnt on both sides.

The point about Shakir is the efficiency would continue to fall because he isn't versatile (or you might say 'complete') enough to be used in the range of ways you would need to use him to get him 160 targets. You'd end up trying to force feed the ball to him in situations where he is not best suited to a) get open and b) make the catch and so the likelihood is the efficiency would drop again. The more you get away from using the particular skillset he has and towards trying to use him as a "do it all" receiver the less efficient he will ultimately be. I actually think there is a case to be made that the way to get greater production out of Shakir would be to dial his targets back slightly.... not massively... but about a target per game compared to 2024 and to focus those targets better on optimising his skillset. I don't think the Bills are in the position to do that without having a better situation on the boundary, but I am open to the possibility that Shakir ends up having a 1,000 yard season at some stage on fewer targets than the 100 he had in 2024. You can't exact league discipline on a player based on gut feel about what it was. The NFLPA would have a field day with it.

At this moment, granted a lot can change, smart money is on declining the option.

I just don't know if he has the nuance or understanding of how to use the athletic ability he does have to compensate for what he doesn't. But there is a lot of trash on his 2024 tape. And good on him for having the balls to call himself on it. Respect.

Hmmm. Knee. Not great.