GunnerBill
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Posts posted by GunnerBill
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This would be a huge blow for his run blocking and protection to chip Mack.
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THe all 22 is highly subjective and you need no look any further then when it is posted and the NNN's are argueing with the poster that posts it here.
There is room for some subjectivity but I would not say it is highly subjective. Things are pretty clear to see. I wonder now if I was missing some of this stuff with Tyrod last year and so think I am seeing regression because a lot of my focus on the all22s last year were on our defense and what was wrong there. Maybe actually there isn't regression just stagnation.
The O-line we have here is much better than what he had in Houston, or Chicago this year. He had a pretty good line in Cleveland and for the most part played pretty well.
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Seriously as much as I ask the question about whether this team should tie themselves to Tyrod the EJ stuff has to end. Been there, done that, answer is in. EJ is done here he will get the chance to compete for a backup job somewhere else next summer and probably bounces around the league for 3 or 4 more years.
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and for christ sake will you stop bringing up Hoyer......that is NOT a viable option
I don't understand why it is not.
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Isn't it the GM's job is to anticipate roster challenges and address them before they get out of hand? Was it hard for Whaley to look down the roster and see they were thin at WR back in April? I guess he didn't know that Watkins had a bad foot leaving only Robert Woods as a reliable WR on the roster. I guess he just couldn't have known that the others wouldn't fare much beyond their track records as poor options. I guess he expected types like Marquise Goodwin, Jarrett Boykin or raw rookies like Kolby Listenbee to be able to shoulder the load.
It doesn't matter that they're a run first team. Every single NFL offense needs more than a banged up Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, and Charles Clay (the new invisible man) to generate some passing yardage.
The WR position was a mess during the off-season, remained so in camp, and got worse (predictably with Watkins' injury) and somehow it's not the GM's fault.
Doug Whaley is truly the teflon GM. Never responsible for the roster or accountable (to some) for the W-L record, which is 29-30 at the end of his 4th season as GM. And of course, zero playoff appearances. Somehow it's always someone or something else at fault for his team.
Except he was not the man pulling the trigger before the 6-10 year.
Drop that and what is his record?
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I'd definitely bring Hunter back for a reasonable sum. I think he's little more than a RZ option for the most part but I'm not going to pretend that's not worth something, even on its own.
Pretty much a guarantee Tyrod is staying so let's get him the damn Harlem Globetrotters at WR. The reason I'd like Kenny Britt for him.
All this.
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The talk of trading this kid is nonsense. Healthy I'd genuinely have him in the top 5-8 receivers in the league.
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He has definitely not improved since last year. He had an excellent season for a first year starter by any standard (except for Ryan and Gugny's) but I don't think there's any question he has not made progress this year and if anything has regressed.
This. I was a fan last year. There is regression for me in his willingness to stay in and climb the pocket with a better line. Lack of confidence in receiver is possible but it has been noticeable.
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Scared of the unknown? Brian Hoyer is about as known as known can be and his "known" is downright scary. Get a hold of his All 22 and see for yourself.
I have. I watched all of his starts for Chicago this year back on the all 22 before I came here suggesting it. I am not just spitballing here - I have actually put some thought into it. Hoyer is not especially accurate (on short and intermediate throws they have that in common), he doesn't have the arm of Tyrod, he is less mobile (though not a statue), but he has much better touch on short and intermediate routes and the ball is usually thrown to the right receiver as dictated by the coverage.
I do believe that he would put up about the same number of yards in this offense as TT but they'd all be pass yards rather than pass / rush split, he'd put up slightly more touchdowns and more picks. Overall, a slight downgrade, but you wouldn't be tied to him and you would have money spare to really sure up around him the weaker areas of this roster. Most good teams hide the weaknesses through their Quarterback... but we can't because we have a complimentary piece Quarterback not someone who goes out often and takes over games. If this was a discussion about most modern NFL teams I would not advocate getting worse, even a little bit, at Quarterback to shore up other areas. But we are not conventional as a team as the TT fans love to say. Therefore conventional logic can be challenged here too.
But the response here is predictable. It is attack, ridicule and dismiss anyone who presents an alternative.
I've done the work here, I have not just flamed away and claimed Tyrod stinks or start EJ or start Cardale I've presented over a couple of posts a coherent argument and a coherent alternative. It is fine for people to say "okay, I still prefer Tyrod to that" - as FadingPain did - fair enough. But from the majority that isn't the response. The response is attack, ridicule and dismiss. Frankly it does a disservice to this board, and I can understand why people think as a result that there exists a Taylor cult.
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Simple fact is there will be no other QB available through trade, draft, or FA acquisition that wouldn't represent a regression at the position. I don't think those advocating to get rid of TT would be on board with a worse player at the position, but that's what it amounts to.
That is exactly what I am advocating. I am accepting that the free agent game managers available - let's stick with Hoyer and Keenum for now - represent a small downgrade overall at the position from Tyrod. But as I keep saying... it is not Tyrod v Hoyer. It is Tyrod v Hoyer plus 3 starter level contributors. Maybe a safety, maybe extending Z. Brown and maybe a vet WR. I think the latter would make the sum of the parts better for THIS team which does not win because of its Quarterback, but asks its Quarterback to be a complimentary piece.
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It isn't TT vs Hoyer. It is TT vs Hoyer plus 3 starters.Hmmm. I can't go with the Brian Hoyer back up plan.
That dude sucks.
EDIT: and I use Hoyer only as the best example. Fitz would be equally suitable and I think if he wants a shot at starting next year he would have to take the kind of money I am on about but he does have to much baggage here. Case Keenum is another candidate.
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I have made that argumet twice now on this board. If I could get Brian Hoyer at $5m who gives me a bit of a downgrade overall but is a bit of an upgrade as a passer and use that money to address the gaping hole at safety, either retain or replace Gilmore in FA and pick up a vet receiver I think the overall impact would be a better Bills team with a better chance to win in 2017.Gunner Bill!
You do a nice job of addressing Stage 1 of the conversation, namely, should we retain Tyrod or not.
But what about Stage 2? Stage 2 is the "So now what?" part of the plan if Stage 1 leads to NOT retaining Tyrod.
I.E., who is our starting QB next year if we decide not to go forward with Tyrod?
I am not sure you are going to find a better option in the very near term and for that reason, we are almost backed into having to keep Tyrod.
And as an aside, as long as Rex is our coach, Tyrod is our QB. Too much politics built into it for it to be undone.
At the same time I look to the draft and take another shot this year (probably 2nd or 3rd round is where I think the QB value will be) and I hope that a better class next year might give me the chance at a blue chip Quarterback prospect and if it does I am willing to get all Philly and go all in to move up for that person.
If my guy this year or Cardale emerges in the meantime all the better. But I do not accept Hoyer (with a .500 career starting record and an above .500 record in the two places where he has started as the named starter) is a tank it an admission of a wasted 2017.
I accept he is a slight downgrade from TT, but he is a slight downgrade at the cost of an additional 3 starter level talents elsewhere and this is a team designed to win with the QB not through the QB.
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Here is another "look there is no alternative" type thread. And there is. There is an alternative and I have articulated what an alternative approach might look like a couple of times now on this forum.
I am not In Ryan L Billz territory either... I don't think Tyrod sucks, I don't think EJ Manuel was screwed, and I don't think you could just plug Cardale Jones in at this stage and expect to get the same production. But you know what, with every one of these "there is no alternative" type threads I do begin to believe that he is right about Tyrod fandom being "cultish." I just see too much inconsistency, too much bailing clean pockets, too many wide open receivers ignored to be looking at this Quarterback as anything more than a game manager with some wheels.
I accept his is going to be our Quarterback next year and I agree with Kirby that this is not a debate at OBD. But I wonder whether it would be a debate at OBD if it were purely left to the front office to decide it - because the biggest Tyrod Taylor flag waiver in the organisation is the Head Football Coach. The only way Tyrod is not our QB next year is a 4 game slump to end 6-10 looking bad doing it because my strong suspicion is that without Rex this would be a debate the organisation would be having.
MAJBobby has already made the point about people misreading the dead money on the contract for me but let me just be clear. People go on about the $27.5m that Tyrod will be due next season. If he is on the roster on the 3rd day of the league year then over the next two years $40.5m actually becomes guaranteed. The spotrac site and over the cap etc show the dead money as if that money is not guaranteed because at the moment it isn't but if he is on the roster on the 3rd day of 2017 it will be and then the dead money for getting out at the end of 2017 is roughly $25.5m (made up of a $13m fully guaranteed 2018 base salary and $12.4m of the remaining unpaid but fully guaranteed option bonus). Cutting him after 2018 would make the dead cap $9.3m, then after 2019 $6.2m until finally cutting him after 2020 would cost $3.1m in dead cap.
Make no mistake if we roll with Tyrod on this contract in 2017 we are tied in to him for a minimum of 2 years and at a salary where your Quarterback really has to be more than a complimentary piece in an offense. You can talk all you want about how many starters would be paid less than him... but how many paid like starters are asked to do less than him?
I am not a Tyrod hater and nothing frustrates me as much as being called one. I am just someone who watches the games and looks at those numbers and thinks about the 2 or 3 other contributors that will cost us and asks - Is this Quarterback worth that in respect of making enough of a difference in wins and losses?
I have said before if Seattle Tyrod turns up every week count me in, but if we get Seattle Tyrod, followed by Cincy Tyrod, followed by 1st half Jax Tyrod, followed by 2nd half Jax Tyrod..... I don't want to pay him like a starter. Because that level of consistency is what Jeff Fisher might call "8 and 8 bull ****".
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I don't disagree that less human element isn't a better solution. Where we are disagreeing is that I believe a better trained official will do a better job, even if it is slightly better. I am not saying that the officiating problem is solved but if they make .0000005% better calls because of their preparation, that would mean that they improved. I don't expect it to skyrocket but I could see maybe a call a game be fixed. I would think that with respect to line play would be the biggest difference.
And that is the soccer experience Kirby. Hasn't solved all issues with officials but the consensus is it has seen a marginal increase in the standard and consistency of decision making.
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I liked the Seymour pick the moment it was made and predicted he's earn the nickel job. If he has to go out and play on the corner on Sunday we will see how far along in his development he is. I see him more inside I have to say at this stage in his career and we should not be too fast to jump on the kid if he does not have a great game against two pretty darn good receivers. I think if they let Gilmore walk they will bring in a FA corner to start on maybe a 1 or 2 year deal and keep bringing Seymour along initially as the nickel and feeding him in more on the boundary.
I think he has talent. Let's just try not to jump to too many conclusions about his career one way or the other on Sunday evening.
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The dude broke his foot 9 months ago and it's still broken? So that screw did nothing but cause discomfort and didn't fully heal the injury.
I don't think they gave it enough time to heal.
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Yeah and he played hurt in how many of those games....???
Sorry if I expect more from the 4th pick in the draft., he's average at best (when he even plays)
Hahahahahaha. No he is not.
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I have said before it did help in soccer. Didn't solve the problem totally but helped and they way it helped is it made it a career option for people. So rather than the refs who made the Premier League always being at the upper end of the age bracket because refereeing had been their second priority career it lowered the average age because younger guys pursued it as a primary career. That resulted in fitter officials, closer to incidents making on the whole better decisions.
I think it is a positive step and is certainly worth trying in the NFL.
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it does sound crazy when trying to explain it!
I appreciate you guys all taking the time. I still enjoy the games and like amateur scouting the players. I just find the structure bonkers.
I will enjoy that the semi finals are New Years Eve. I plan to see in the New Year in the local pub then get home and stick the second game on.
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And that still falls on the GM.
Yep to an extent. Bringing Harvin in the 1st time I was dead against and that was a waste of cash some of which was off this year's cap.
I also continue to think the Charles Clay contract is way too pricey.
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they can be somewhat pointless when it comes to selecting the 4 team playoff but many times they are exciting for the schools who don't compete year in and year out for a NC, this is next best thing. Helps recruiting, etc.
It is just very different to anything I am used to. I can't believe now that if you were sitting down today with a blank sheet of paper to design a system you would design this.
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Yeah, this year has been nuts. As weird as this sounds, the committee seems to be on top of it. It's not perfect, BUT if Washington and Clemson win this week the 4 most deserving teams will go. The final 4 will be comprised of the only power 5 teams with 0 or 1 loss.
That does seem right but in which case the conference Championship match ups are a) bonkers and b) pointless.
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There was limited money. I think the Bills knew their receiver corps were weak. They just didn't have the free agent $$$s to spend.
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If you want it to be even more confusing, maybe the most important factor is who you play that isn't in your conference. Washington played 3 bad teams (scheduled years in advance). They are sitting with 1 total loss but could (although unlikely) get jumped by a 2 loss team even with a win.
If they do lose Colorado would have 2 losses but be the conference champ. Michigan beat Colorado by 3 scores but finished 3rd in their half of their own division. Who goes then? Does The Big 10 champ go (PSU or Wisconsin), the PAC 12 champ (Colorado) or Michigan who beat all 3 of them?
Haha. I have no idea Kirby. I should be clear in the current system Ohio State are certainties. I just think the system is ripe and overdue for reform.
We Should Pick Up the Option on Tyrod No Matter What
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Right, cos Tyrod has never made a bad play. I'm not telling people Brian Hoyer is our saviour..... I just don't understand why some fans don't want to approach with caution the idea we give Tyrod a big deal and tie ourselves to him when he hasn't shown himself to be more than a game manager yet. It's an odd and difficult situation we are in. Normally if you draft a guy you get 4 years to take a view on him, because of the way we acquired Tyrod we get two years. I just don't know that we have seen enough. Hoyer can keep you at .500 at a much reduced cost. Hopefully Tyrod plays a couple of really good games down the stretch and the question goes away... but asking me to evaluate what I see now and get on board with tying myself in for 2 years at $16m.... I can't get there.