GunnerBill

Who do they have at corner you are so impressed with? They made the Superbowl with Awuzie who is good not great and Apple who sucks. The following year when they lost the AFCCG (which Im guessing are the two years @GoBills808 is referring to in terms of holding down KC) they had Awuzie who is good not great and Cam Taylor-Britt who is a sort of average zone corner CB2 type. Better than say a Dane Jackson but I'd take him after Christian Benford. They have been, however, better up front than us. DJ Reader (a guy we tried to get and he went there instead) and Trey Hendrikson (who a lot of us wanted the Bills to go for) were forces on that team. And Sam Hubbard is underrated too. But I think it is legitimate to say they have done more with comparable talent than we have vs the Chiefs in the playoffs. The thing is the Bills can do it against the Chiefs too. They have shown that in the regular season. To hold KC's offense down you have to play your best game on the day and they have to be a bit off theirs. The Bills have done that 3 of the last 5 meetings. Unfortunately the two that counted most that hasn't been the case. We know its a whole range of factors why. But when you strip it back to brass tacks I do think the statement that the Bengals with similar talent have done better vs the Chiefs in the post season is true. Yep. That was a blown play but by the two backups.

Yea I can remember a couple in all the years. One against Baltimore in '19 stands out and one I think in the Tampa overtime loss. But they were very, very rare.

He has been terrible tho.

I liked Marshall coming out but he is more of a big slot. I think we need someone who can play outside

Dawkins wasn't him. And yea, all pros. He has zero first team all pros out of the six drafts before this one. He has two second team all pros - Josh Allen (2020) and Taron Johnson (2023). I get the Bills are drafting late but actually there are multiple all pros that have come later in those classes. In six drafts I think I'd hope for more than two to put him in top end GM territory. And even pro bowlers... drafted by Beane.... it's Allen twice and then Edmunds once as original selections with Edmunds once more and Knox once as alternates. Those numvers have to tick up for me to say he is great. He is clearly good. He gets guys that can play, he doesn't have a ton of busts for 6 years of doing it and he creates depth right down the roster to the extent our cuts often make other squads. But it is the high end where Josh covers for some warts IMO.

It is certainly fair the way the league has gone to say that if you do hit on an OC it is harder to keep them. That said the number of these offensive whizz kids who fail as HCs is pretty high too. I still believe the #1 criteria for your head coach hire is get the best leader of men you can. If all things are equal after that lean offense.

Yea he is an outside threat, so I'm interested. I'd make a call. I think you'd tempt me at a 4th for a 5th pick swap. I wouldn't "give up a pick" but move down a round, sure.

Yep that is absolutely my view. When it comes to finding players who can legit play in the NFL I put Beane up against anybody. He is one of the better day 3 drafters and he has a goid history finding UDFAs and the lower value FA pickups that contribute. The knock, and it is a fair one, is on the lack of elite talent difference makers both in terms of draft and his higher end FA signings.

Sure. But that is why I said zero. I was talking specifically about the waiver process.

He was always a clunky scheme fit. I was asked on here before that draft to rank the top 7 corners in the class as potential Bills scheme fits. I put Elam 6th. They drafted him on physical profile and trusted they could totally change his playing style.

Jones is more a Mike in this scheme than a will. So what is the plan? Play him as a limited athlete at Will? Move Bernard off a great year to Will? Trade Elam for a backup LB? I just don't see the fit.

I would agree on Gore if his name were anything other than Frank Gore junior. I am not saying he will but I think is better than almost zero. Would have to be a team keeping 4 though cos I agree his lack of teams play stops him being your 3rd gameday active.

Wasn't subject to waivers as a vested vet. Was Bates player for player? Forget who went the other way but think it was.

I was right there a year ago and then they didn't do it. Granted they had Milano healthy and they had Dodson who had at least been around a bit (though hadn't played much) but you can still have the vet in the room without needing to roster them because of the rules now. Use the 53 to protect your young guys, the practice squad rules make it really easy to have a vet in the room and to elevate them if a guy goes down. I just think vet middle linebackers are kinda ten to the dollar. I expect they will go the way they did last year again and go with the young guys and put a vet on the PS. If they had a vet who was clearly in their best 5 that's different. But they don't.

Roster cutdown waiver acquisitions it is zero. That doesn't mean he hasn't made claims though. We have been near the back of the waiver queue for all of that period. I'm sure there is one or two in season waiver claims I might be missing - Jordan Phillips the first time back in 2018 was definitely an in-season waiver claim. There probably have been some others since but in terms of cutdown waiver pick ups since 2020 it's zero.

Not as relevant to this conversation which is mainly looking at the back end of the 53 and camp depth (although that has been impacted this year by tightness to the cap and all the dead money on it) but yes... I think there is a trade off between depth particularly when you are talking how strong are your #2s vs how many difference makers are there that you have regularly on the field? And I do think the Bills have veered slightly too far towards the vet depth end as against the prioritise the elite end. But it is a bit chicken and egg, right? Have they had more $$s to build depth because they haven't found enough elite guys that they need to pay top of market or have they not paid enough elite top of market guys because they have spent too much on depth? I think year by year a bit of both is true of the Bills roster building. In fairness to Beane you also have to say they have had some just plain bad luck. When three years in a row you lose one of your top 6 paid guys to a season ending injury by the midway mark that is going to hurt.... so they haven't always been able to get maximum efficiency from their spend on their top guys because of the ACLs to Von and Tre, the leg break for Matt and Tre's achillies and that is without throwing in Milano's bicep tear which I think we all hope isn't season ending and he could come back for the stretch run if the Bills are in the hunt. So in conclusion: yes, I think there's a trade off; yes, I think the Bills have probably been slightly further towards the depth end than I'd like; but equally the reasons for that are, as ever, complicated to easily unpick and a range of factors at play.

I've started this thread on the back of an interesting shoutbox conversation last night about whether Bills fans over estimate the quality of their cuts and worry unduly about people who are essentially camp legends in Buffalo but don't register on the NFL landscape otherwise. I think there was certainly a time when that was true when we'd be worrying about losing guys to other teams when we were arguably fielding a bottom 10/12 NFL roster. But I said last night that is no longer true and actually the Bills do a great job with roster depth right through camp. It is something I think contributed to the long pre-season unbeaten run which before the defeat to Carolina in the final pre-season game of 2022 stood at 10 games. Certainly since 2020 when they won their first division title in forever the Bills have had very deep 53 man rosters and deep groups behind that through camp. That has led to cutdown day resulting in the Bills losing guys they would have liked on their practice squads. I knew they were top 3 in that category, I'd heard that in a podcast but I thought it was with the 49ers and the Ravens... it turns out it is the 49ers and the Jets (anomaly, more to come). Since 2020 the teams who have had the most roster claims on guys waived at cutdown day are: 1. Buffalo Bills (10) 2. New York Jets (9) 3. San Francisco 49ers (8) =4. Kansas City Chiefs (6) =4. Philadelphia Eagles (6) What do you notice from that? Well the Chiefs (1st), Bills (2nd), 49ers (6th) and Eagles (10th) are among the winning most franchises over that period. That, you would logically assume, means they have strong rosters which makes them harder to crack for rookies and undrafted players which means each summer they are more likely to cut guys other teams think they could use. Why then the Jets? Hard to say. Of their nine, five came in a single year - 2022 - and while it is not immediately obvious why that should be the case there was an element of year 2 of Saleh being a time they cut bait with guys drafted under Adam Gase. I think it is probably just one of those inexplicable anomalies because otherwise the pattern is pretty consistent. Good teams have more guys claimed than bad teams. For those wondering the full list of the 10 Bills claimed: 2020 - Vincent Taylor, Defensive Tackle - claimed by Cleveland Browns 2021 - Jack Anderson, Interior Offensive Line - claimed by the Philadelphia Eagles 2021 - Nick McCloud, Defensive Back - claimed by the Cincinnati Bengals 2022 - Tanner Owen, Offensive Tackle - claimed by the New Orleans Saints 2022 - Luke Tenuta, Offensive Tackle - claimed by the Indianapolis Colts 2022 - Nick McCloud, Defensive Back - claimed by the New York Giants 2022 - Kingsley Jonathon, Defensive End - claimed by the Chicago Bears 2023 - Nick Broeker, Interior Offensive Line - claimed by the Houston Texans 2023 - Alex Austin, Defensive Back - claimed by the Houston Texans 2023 - Zayne Anderson, Defensive Back - claimed by the Green Back Packers I think that in itself is interesting. It breaks down as four offensive line, four defensive backs (including McCloud twice) and two defensive linemen. What do those spots have in common? They are the most numerous spots on NFL rosters. Most teams keep 9 or 10 at each of those spots and that creates greater opportunity. Worth reminding ourselves that in addition to these 10 guys claimed off waivers Brandon Beane has swung late camp trades to recover day 3 picks for the likes of Darryl Johnson (6th rounder), Boogie Basham (6th rounder), Marshall Newhouse (7th rounder) and Russell Bodine (6th rounder). It's also interesting because of where Brandon Beane has deployed draft and free agency dollars. He has brought in a ton of FA vets on both lines, spent a lot of high picks on the defensive line and drafts at least one day 3 defensive back every year (with a reasonable rate of success I might add). The positions where he traditionally hasn't invested so much *cough* wide receiver, you don't see guys who fail to make the Bills roster being desired by other teams - although Isaiah Hodgins was claimed off waivers when the Bills finally released him in 2022 thought that happened later in the season. What does all of this mean for what happens this week? It will be interesting to observe. My contention all summer has been this camp squad is not as deep as previous years, despite what looks like a decent crop of day 3 picks from the most recent draft. I wonder if that will show itself in the Bills facing fewer roster claims? The majority of the guys I think might be attractive if they hit the waiver wire - Cam Lewis (who I think is still subject because I think he has 3 accrued seasons rather than 4 despite being around longer), Ja'Marcus Ingram, Kingsley Jonathan, Tylan Gable, Alec Anderson, Zach Davidson - are all likely to make the team. So I think the remaining candidates are: Joe Andreessen who is obviously the most interesting case. Personally I have him making the 53 but if he doesn't the Pittsburgh tape was so good you might get a bottom feeding team who think he is worth taking a chance on. Tre' McKitty, who might also make the squad if Quintin Morris goes on IR, but if he doesn't could garner some interest. He cleared waivers when cut by the Chargers last October before the Bills scooped him up for the practice squad, but teams are generally less willing to mess with their rosters at that point of the year and he still has the pedigree of a former third round pick and is a good special teamer. Frank Gore Jnr, who health permitting could get some looks. I don't think any other 5'8, 4.69 running back would be getting looks for a waiver claim - even with a strong pre-season behind him but I do think the lineage might tempt some teams in. His dad wasn't big or fast either and was overlooked but is going to end up in Canton at some point. And then of course there are always the surprises. I'd say of the 10 names listed above 9 were guys you always suspected could be at risk of waiver claims if cut and might not make it through to the practice squad..... the one that stands out is Luke Tenuta who the Bills wasted a 6th round pick on. He looked so stiff in camp and pre-season and it was a shock the Colts claimed him. Even more so that they cut Ryan Van Demark to make room who cleared waivers but landed on the Bills practice squad and eventually made the active roster last season and is on course to do so again this year. Tenuta was waived by the Colts two months later and claimed again by Green Bay where he remains having spent 2023 on IR. Takeaways: 1. The Bills have been one of the most picked over rosters at cut down day, which speaks to their roster depth even through the summer in recent years; 2. The guys that get claimed are generally at those high volume roster positions - OL, DL, DB; 3. There look to be fewer guys this year who might fall into that category if they are cut. Hope some of you got to the end of that and it was at least somewhat interesting. EDIT: should say analysis based on information from nfltraderumours.co who run a yearly tracker. I can't entirely validate its veracity but it seems comprehensive from a quick cross check with the NFL.com's unwieldy waiver tracker page.

Why do you have Morrow making it? He hasn't played a snap in the pre-season was with the 3s all the way through camp.... he is the mystery to me. I have 5 staying: Bernard, Williams, Spector (so long as healthy), Ulofoshio, Andreessen. Morrow or Jones or some other pound a penny vet on the practice squad. Except they didn't last year. They went with young guys and put Kirksey and then Klein on the PS. I expect them to do the same. That level of vet is seriously easy to find and the practice squad rules now allow you to just stick them there. Morrow should be cut IMO. I don't know why he hasn't played a snap in pre-season but when a guy is with the 3s in camp then doesn't get on the field its usually a bad sign.

You can and you don't have to designate. You only have to pre-designate for the two you IR on cutdown day. Once a player makes the 53 he can be IR'd and then he just becomes one of your potential 8 returns you are allowed during the course of the year but you don't have to decide that at the point he is IR'd whereas you do with the pre-cut ones. Deion Jones is totally washed. He has been terrible in pre-season. He was a great player 8 years ago. It is not 8 years ago now. I loved him in the draft and thought he was freaking awesome his first 4 or 5 years in the league. But as I said when we signed him: there is a reason he has been cut / not re-signed 3 times in the last two years. He's toast.

No

He has been freaking incredible for a rookie 6th rounder who has only plaued tackle for like 3 years. The last two seasons I have lived in a "we are a Dion Dawkins injury away from season over" world. I know it is only pre-season but I am much more relaxed about it this year. I am not generally a get carried away about day 3 rookies type. But I am excited. His run blocking still needs some work. He needs to fire off the ball a bit better and get downhill but he has been terrific in pass pro. He looks like a kid that could play right tackle next year if Spencer walks and then in 2/3 years as Dion ages out you could legit think about flipping him. I know, I know.... calm down. But man he has been impressive.

I don't think it was him who misplayed it. I think it was on him that they were lined up wrong and then he was trying to communicate right before the snap and obviously didn't get the message across but in the Bills scheme there the way they have run it under McDermott the will linebacker drops into zone on the tight end and the mike comes up and tries to take the flat. Other defenses do that differently and just say outside guy attack the outside but the Bills have generally played it the other way. I don't know who was at fault or what the call should have been. But my guess is Jones shoulda had the tight end just based on what they tend to do. Andreessen's worst plays were the toudown run up the middle second half where he hesitated and then got beaten to the spot by an OL and there were two pass plays where the Panthers ran 4 verts and he struggled carrying the vertical route in the middle of the field and the ball was thrown over him. That is the hardest bit to grasp, in fairness, and to execute. But Carolina got him on two of those.

Agree. It increases the odds. But it isn't guarantee. Jones was an EASY cut IMO. He sucks.

It is well known that McDermott is one of the best at designing disguised coverages (Belichick I think called him "the best" at one point) but you gotta have smart players on the backend to make it go. That is one of the reasons I am far less chilled about safety than some are. Yes, it's just safety.... not a premium spot.... but if you don't have the right guys there in *this scheme* it forces you to be way more vanilla.

Made better decisions in 2022 and 2023. I think once we get to this offseason, sure, there were some limits to their options. Although even then they had the choice to be more aggressive at the draft, they had the choice to target a true outside free agent... someone like DJ Chark rather than someone like Mack Hollins who feels like a safe "locker room presence" vet rather than a "best receiver available" vet.