Dan

So am I reading all this right? The balls were not deflated because of science and the ideal gas law as stated by the team, but we can't use the science or ideal gas law to prove they were deflated below normal. This has gone from interesting, to comical, to disbelief, to just stupid. And I don't use that word very often, but that's what we've devolved into.

None of this changes the fact that Brady and the team cheated. How the league found out? How they handled the discovery process? How much it did or did not affect a single game? Brady would have hidden evidence that would have incriminated himself; therefore, him not cooperating had no affect on the investigation (friggin brilliant logic there, btw)? None of that changes the simple facts that they cheated, they got caught, they did not cooperate fully with the investigation. You've gone so far beyond rational defense of Brady and his cheating ways that I'm pretty sure not even you knows what you're arguing for any more. Look they cheated. It worked. It got them to another Super Bowl. Now, they and their defenders need to just accept the modest punishment and move on to new ways of cheating. edit: Exactly.

Does anyone know... Can they recover deleted text messages from a phone? Because certainly, tommy boy has wiped his phone of all texts, call logs, emails, etc. Right? Do they have to subpoena the texts from the NSA databank in UT? Anyone with knowledge care to enlighten me?

I'm not sure what you're arguing. That they only play teams in the AFCE? Or that other teams fumbling the ball more is evidence that they didn't gain an advantage from delfating the balls below regulation allowances? Or perhaps you're proposing the "the cheating didn't help them at all, they just did it because they got bored playing by the same rules as everyone else, so their win/loss record would be the same, ergo it's not really cheating because you can't provide a peer reviewed scientific article to demonstrate the cheating aided in their winning" argument? That team has cheated, systemically, for years. Players, coaches, equipment personnel have all been found guilty. The league determined that fact on multiple occasions and has punished the team on multiple occasions over multiple years. Anyone saying that the cheating doesn't matter and should be forgotten is just ignoring reality, lacks any moral conviction, or is just a troll attempting to ellicit reaction.

No, they made it to the last SB, and all others, by bending the rules illegally throughout the season allowing them an unfair adavantage which lead to more wins than they should have earned... enough wins to get into the playoffs with home field advantage.

I think what he is saying, similar to many people including myself, is that without the deflated balls, video taping, communications issues, questionable formations, and whatever else the league as kept quiet... They wouldn't have even been in the Super Bowl, let alone had a chance to win one. Let's not whitewash it, name another team that has had so many proven and alleged instances of violating rules as this team has for the last 10-15yrs. People can argue how much of an advantage it was, or even the scientific validity of it (as though only peer reviewed scientific research papers are... nevermind), but the fact remains... Only one team has been repeatedly accused of, investigated and found guilty of violating league rules in a manner that directly affects the outcome of a game on the field on game day. Sure, you and others may point to teams piping in crowd noise or abusing the salary cap, but none of that is game day cheating that directly affects the game that day as much as tampering with the ball or altering the communications to your players about to make a play. So, yes, defend them as not being that bad. Defend them as being part of an entire league that cheats. Defend them because Wells didn't commission a 5 year scientific study to determine the accuracy and precision of NFL pressure guages while determining the atmospheric conditions inside and outside of NFL locker rooms and bathrooms. Defend them in any way you wish to conjure. But, the reality you can not escape is that they're the only team that is accused of this type of stuff year in and year out and they're the only team that the league has found enough evidence to levy punishment on and instituted new rules and procedures to stop.

Point very much taken. I'm not even sure I'd rank them in t he top 10. Without click bait, where most of the internet be.

Again, and one last time, had Brady turned over his phone they could verify he never contacted anyone. But, he didn't. He chose to not cooperate with the investigation. Then when the league draws conclusions, you want to say but let's see what Brady has to say??? And then when the league factors in his lack of cooperation into the punishment, you want to say its a witch hunt??? You seem to want to have it both ways. Give Brady the benefit of the doubt and don't expect him to assist in proving himself innocent. Essentially, just believe him because he wouldn't lie, everyone else is.

So we have: I repeat.... "He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done" So Brady had no knowledge the situation? No knowledge of McNally?

Agreed. It's definitely a concern. Anyone not concerned about the QB situation on this team is not paying attention. In my mind, its the single biggest question mark about this team.... Who will be QB and will he suck? I feel better about the offensive line than I do our QB options.

Yes. But perhaps its just the characterization as a "panic mode". Nothing the Bills have done has suggested they're in a panic over the QB position. In fact, just the opposite. I think you could say we have a hole at QB, or its a huge question mark, or its the weakest position on the team likely to doomour season. But I don't think the team is panicking to fix it.

Exactly. Apparently, we are now in a world where everything must be recorded on a cell phone camera to be true. Otherwise, we can't prove anything. And all you really have to do is just not cooperate because if you don't specifically say you did it...how can we really know? The 2 dudes, the referees, the investigators are all lying. Brady is the only one that will tell the truth... Well he won't because if he does then it might get misconstrued by the public. But, he's thinking the truth and we should believe him.

So the report does not have enough evidence, you do not even know what would constitute enough evidence, all you're certain of is the report is fundamentally flawed and should be thrown out? A text message conversation specifically discussing these 2 individuals conversation with Brady and their deflating of balls with pins is as close to documented proof as you can get. I would wager its even more concrete evidence than an eye witness report to the conversation. So where is this circumstantial evidence? Its a circular argument to state they have no direct evidence from Brady, when Brady refused to provide the evidence that they requested.

Imagine that... Brady refuses to cooperate fully and provide evidence (to prove his guilt or innocence), then states that the report has no evidence. You really don't see what's wrong with that? Short of getting a video of Brady deflating balls, what would you say is evidence?? The investigation has on record 2 team employees talking to each other, one saying Brady told me he's unhappy with the balls, the other saying he'll take care it if Tom gets him some merchandise. One actually calling himself the deflater. And that's not evidence that something was going on? Or that Brady was not in some fashion aware that something was going on? ...not to mention the fact that ALL league employees and players are required of cooperate FULLY with all league investigations. So, I ask, what would you require as proof of cheating here by the team or Brady? To take it further, the league had similar proof (texts) in the Browns scandal and levied punishment. Do you also think the Browns got railroaded with a lack of evidence?

I can understand your wanton desire to defend the Pats**, but you're stretching so far beyond rational thought its hard to imagine you even believe what you're saying. The issue with Brady's phone is quite simple, the league says you must cooperate fully with all investigations. Brady did not. For whatever reasons he had, it's irrelevant. He was asked to provide information and he declined. Was he hiding information? Was he trying to protect someone else? Was he just being pissy because he disliked Wells? We will never know and it doesn't matter. When you're under investigation, you don't withhold evidence because the public may misconstrue it. When you say you don't know someone because "you asked me about McNally, I just knew him as the deflater"; you're being disingenuous. You want to keep implying that there's no direct evidence, as though you want a date-stamped video of Brady standing over McNally with a pressure gauge in one hand and a bag of footballs over his shoulder while McNally is holding a picture of Brady's private birthday party as he's inserting pins into footballs, both wearing league issued ID badges while the PA announcement can be heard in the background stating that the game is underway and all league certified footballs must now be present and accounted for. Rarely in any case is there such direct evidence that removes every possible shadow of doubt, But as KTD pointed out, the preponderance of evidence adds up to one rational conclusion and that conclusion is that Brady was unhappy with the footballs and instructed the, self proclaimed, deflater to fix it.

I've never understood the argument that a player was taken a little too high. We had the #50 pick, wanted a player that probably would have been gone before our next pick. So, what are they supposed to do? Trade down... what if no one wants to trade up 10 spots? None of us are in the war room. We don't know what moves they may or may not have tried to make. You can also say, they could have taken this other player. But maybe their paid, professional scouts didn't think he was a fit for our team? I respect a lot of the opinions of a lot of people here, but none of us are paid by the Bills to evaluate and rank the players in terms of best fit for the schemes our coaches want to install. It seems they had their players ranked and took the guys they wanted, when they could get them. The notion that they could trade down a few spots and still get a guy is all reliant upon willing trade partners and none of us know what was pursued or not. Personally, I'm completely underwhelmed by our draft. But, I suspect it was a very good draft for us because Whaley seemed to get exactly who he wanted with each pick. In a couple years, we'll know if he was right.

I say offer Clay and Kiko straight up! (And for those saying but Dan we already traded Kiko away... I say.. Obviously we would have to trade Cassell and Harvin to the Eagles for Kiko first.) Get er done!

Just because he can't contractually be traded does not mean we can't start meaningless threads about how he could be traded. This is the place that routinely wants to sign players that aren't even FAs. Every player can be had and traded if only Whaley is smart enough to do it!

The Probowl wouldn't be so bad if they actually played a football game. But as they've changed it... It's a farce. Then add having it before the Super Bowl, and half the stars don't even show up. So, what's the point other than for player contract negotiations? Move it back, to after the Super Bowl, give the players some incentive to actually win the game and it'll be a much better event. It'll never be great.... But it doesn't have to be... That's what the Super Bowl is for. It just has to be watchable, which it currently isn't.

I really agree with you. And normally, I think the absolute worst way to build a winning team is through Free Agency (and trades like this season). But, the Bills have been floundering In mediocrity for entirely too long. And drafting players and waiting for them to develop just hasn't worked. Now, maybe the moves this off season won't work either. But one thing that has happened, in just the span of a few months, the Bills have become relevant again. With Rex, Roman, Shady, Hughes, Harvin, Cassell, etc... The Bills are seen by most all people as a team that's making moves and doing everything they can to improve. All the draft picks in the world wouldn't be able to make the Bills relevant again. So, yeah it may not be the move for established teams with a history of competing in the playoffs. But, for a team lost in mediocrity, I'd say we're having just the type of off season our young players need. Now.... It's up to Rex and company to put it all together and actually make these players into a winning, play off caliber team next season. ...And up to Whaley and company to keep drafting guys that can keep it going in a couple years when all these FAs leave or get too old.

I agree. I keep reading how bad our Oline is, and I don't completely disagree that we need to add better players there. But, I also don't think we should forget that Marrone had a completely contrarian point of view regarding the Oline. As I recall, he made statements along the lines of.... Just get your 5 best players out there, regardless of position, and continuity is not an issue. Hence he continued jumbling the line all the way into the season. Given that our line played worse each year under him... it could very well be that his philosophy towards the line was completely wrong. And our players aren't as bad as they appeared (if in the right position, with the right scheme, with time to build cohesion). I guess we'll see come September because I don't see any significant upgrades, other than draft picks at this point in the year.

Since Warren Sapp got in... It's officially the Hall of Pretty Good Players I've Heard Of. So, sure, why not? Induct everyone that hasn't completely sucked. IMO, Willis shouldn't even be talked about as HOF, let alone considered. Which means... He's probably a first balloter.

Thanks guys.

It's inconceivable that anyone could looks at this team, as it stands today with FAs still to be signed and the draft on the horizon, and not think there have been big improvements. We've replaced several players with lots of "potential" to be great with players that have actually proven to be great. We replaced a lower tier college coaching staff with actual NFL level coaches. And there are still moves to be made. Yes, some of the moves are risky (i.e. Harvin). But I prefer to take that risk and have Harvin on the field and not rely on Hogan continuing to develop. And, yes, we still have to see how or even if it all comes together on the field in September. But, there's no doubt the Bills FO is serious about making moves to improve this team, and there seems to be no one that's hindering them moneywise. Finally, yes, I'd love to see several good linemen brought in like most everyone. But, I think we also have to consider that with the completely inept offensive coaching we've had the last couple years, its entirely possible we have decent young linemen on the team right now (if they're put in the right position and coached properly). So, yeah, anyone looking at the Bills' off season to date and thinking its not going well is definitely not seeing the picture with open eyes. Step back for a day, go out get some sunshine, then get geared up for the rest of the ride. Because it's actually looking really good to be a Bills fan for the first time in nearly 20 years.

Please... Say you're joking.