Dan

That's ok. My comment was more in general, to a line that I've heard repeated for years. I agree this is definitely not a place for politics and definitely something I would never talk about here. I certainly would not have debated the point. It was really just a brief point in passing. It is nice to see that I'm not the only person alive that doesn't buy into it.

perhaps the biggest lie created and perpetuated in the last 20 years

I couldn't disagree more. I think what Marv is doing is attempting to build a team that will play well for years. Sure, he could go out and sign big name free agents. But its been proven time and time again that, that doesn't mean success. Would you rather we sign TO? Usually big name "in demand" players alos ome with built in egos and attitudes. And who needs that? We all know Marv doesn't like rookies. And I couldn't agree more. Rookies are a crap shoot at best. Some work out, some don't. And of those that do, most take at least a few years to realize their potential. So, its a risky business to build your team around draft picks alone. So what's the other option, sign veteran, well'known free agents. Guys that are on the downside of their career, that want to win now and have all the attitude in the world. Maybe you get lucky and they decide to play together, but get toom any "me" guys together and it often ends in trouble. So, what's the smart way. Exactly what Marv seems to be doing. Signing young guys that have already cut their teeth in the NFl, but aren't super stars, yet. They have many more years left in the tank and lots of upside. If you get the right kind of guys and put them together, you get a solid team that plays competitively for years, ala the Patriots. So, for now, I'm liking the signings. But we'll just have to wait until about November to see how its all really shaping up.

Not a single player on this team has done much over the past 2 years to warrant keeping them at all cost, imo. So, I say if cutting him or anyone gives us more money to build a team, then do it and do it without hesitation. Right now the needs of the team far out wiegh the needs of a player.

The QB debate here is really quite simple and its very much tied to the mentality of the team. Right now the Bills are a losing organization. They haven't really been a good, competitive team for quite a few years. Other than Moulds, none of the current players can remember the last time the Bills were a decent team. So how do you change that? I think you look at teams like Cinci, Seatle, San Diego. How did they change that mentality of the organization? Simple you get a good group of young players and stick with them. Give them a few years to develop together as a team and they'll begin to believe in each other and turn things around. And that, most certainly, includes the QB position. Right now the Bills, have some great young players on Offense. Willis, Evans, and JP. If we put together a decent line this year, and let all those guys play they'll begin to develop and perhaps in 07 we'll make a run for the playoffs. But certainly, if you keep them all together and playing together - with a better group of linemen - we'll be in the playoffs in 08. The surest way to continue inconsistent play and a losing mentality is to continually insert new palyers (ala Arizona) and hope that by some miracle you strike gold and find that group that works together and becomes a winning team.

The guys on NFL network said it last night... "the HOF is becoming a popularity contest just like the Pro Bowl. Nuff said." And I tend to agree with them. And that hurts all of the Bills players because none were the flashy, get in the press all the time kind of guys.

All I know is letting good players go with no viable replacement spelss trouble. One of the biggest mistakes last year was letting Pat Williams go. How much better would our year have been if they just paid up the cash and we kept the defense solid? I want to build the lines more than anyone, but if we get rid of all the other quality players to do so, then we haven't built much. Clements - as piss average as he looked this year - is a good player, with a lot of upside. In my opinion, you do what it takes to keep him or be highly compensated if he's let go.

A few points to keep in mind: 1. Marv doesn't like starting rookies. So, do we really think he's going to trade veterans like Clements and Spikes, just so he can get draft picks and start the new rookies in their place? I can't see that happening. 2. As has been beaten to death here.. .there are no sure things in the draft. (Hence Marv doesn't like to start rookies.) So, why trade picks to get that one special player when you're not even sure he'll be a good player? Why not pick as many lineman as possible and hope at least one of them pans out? Seems like the more prudent approach to me. 3. Trading or moving anything in any way to get Vince Young is just crazy talk. Stop it now, because it shows that you're drinking to much mountain dew or something. 4. Ralph seemed to open the pocket book back in the early 90's with Marv and got alot of quality players. Isn't it reasonable to think he may do it again? So, we may not be going as cheap in the free agent (or coaching) market as everyone assumes.

This thread is about as ridiculous as they come. Does anyone actually think that Marv would make such moves just to select a qb that you know he won't want for at least a few years?

The bottom line with big Mike, and pretty much everyone on the line, is that they haven't done anything with any consistency to deserve any thing, let alone a job in the NFL. If any of them are retained, I'd hope its at a significant pay cut and only to back up whomever we bring in (with the possible exception of Peters). Mike may have a lot of extenuating circumstances surrounding his subpar play. But who cares. Who's to say those types of circumstances won't continue? Also, who cares if he goes somewhere else and becomes the best lineman of all time? He's done nothing here and he's done nothing to show that he ever will here. Sometimes you just have to cut your slack and move on. And this definitely seems like a time to cut some slack.

only because they've hung their fate on the limp arm of a so so qb. not because of his coaching, imo.

I would disagree with this statement. The game has not changed. Times have, and as a result people think things are different. But the way you win in teh NFL is the same way you've always won - you get players of character that care more about winning as a team than they do personal gains. Look no further than the Patriots and you'll see they're built on the dame foundations as all the great teams, including the early 90 Bills; and that's why they're consistent winners. And that, I think, is what Marv is talking about. And that, I think, is exactly what this team needs more than anything. Once we have that attitude in place then we worry about talent.

I'd assume its the ole "resign or be fired" option that he got. Technically, my guess would be he resigned. But realistically he was told to resign with dignity before he got fired. That way everyone gets to look nice in the end.

I agree. It was almost bizarre how they could start the majority of games looking so good on offense and defense, but by mid 2nd quarter everything just fell apart. They couldn't sustain and offenseive or defensive consistency, not the energy. - just another reason among many that I think the entire coaching staff should be gone.

I agree there's still plenty of time for really truly sucky people to be hired before we start the we're doomed threads.

I said something quite similar just about a year ago (not so wordy though). And that is why I'm in favor of TD and MM being fired now. In my opinion, they did nothing to help the team grow over the past year. In fact, I think they may have actually set the team back with all the inconsistent and poor decision making.

Seeing that the general consensus of threads at the time of MM's hiring were in favor of that move and singing his praises, I'm viewing the number of people upset with the hiring of Marv and his age as a sure promise of good things to come in 2006. (My memory's really not that good, but I think most threads about TD when he was hired were positive on him as well and how he'd deliver us from the rotten fruits of Butler's labors. If someone with a better memory could confirm that then it'd really be a good sign.)

I think you've hit on it exactly. One of the biggest problems with the Bills over the last 5 years has been with the front office. Marv may be alot of things; he may also not be alot of things. But one thing I think he does almost immediately is address the problems in the front office. He'll definitely bring back order and class to the organization while keeping the team focused in the right direction. And that is what we've been missing more than any player over the last several years. I also suspect Marv will weigh in heavily on a whole host of personnel decisions, including if not especially MM; which would certainly explain the hestitation to say anything defininitive aboiut any of the coaches. This is exactly what we needed. Someone who's intelligent, a good evaluator of what the team needs, and a man that very people can ignore or discredit.

But to say JP looked bad and should be benched, is like saying Drew looked bad and should be cut. A year later we all see that Drew wasn't completely washed up and his decline here was due to factors other than in his control. Why not bench half our starters? They all suck.

I must say I truely disliked the hiring of MM. But then after apparently holding the team together in '04 and getting us back to respectablilty, I thought maybe I was wrong. Then after the benching of JP - the guy we were sold on as being so great. I begin second guessing him as a coach. Now, after the back and forth and waivering and then letting players like Moulds influence the decision, I have zero respect for him as a head coach. He'll have to really turn things around for a few years, before I change my mind and give him the benefit of the doubt again.

I think anyone banking on TD and MM being fired needs to be prepared for the worst. There's been no indication from OBD that they're being canned. It's all been from the press and by us fans. By all accounts, this team is profitable and still shows signs it can win (aka Cincy game). I've been wating for years for TD to be gone and 5 years for a real coach to be here. And I have all the confidence in the world that at this time next year, I'll still be waiting for someone to be hired that has a clue on how to win football games. I'll even be surprised is we have more than 2 new offensive lineman next year. We'll get the same song and dance; they may drop 2 new guys on the line, but we'll still have the same retreads gettting blown over and wondering why KH can't repeat his marvelous 300 yard game from last year. It must be that he's getting old - maybe a young mobile qb is what we need.

I see this concept as being one of our problems under TD - drafting/signing the best available athlete. What that leaves us with is a group of good athletes, minus a team of players. Now, I can't remember everything by any means, but I seem to recall our team through much of the 90's drafting and signing free agents that fit into our team, that Marv liked and that filled positions that we needed better personnel at. Much like the Patriots do now. In the end we always had a good team, that played competivitely. Over the last several years, we draft/sign the best player at the time. But, we're not addressing what the team needs are, nor are we bringing in players that fit into the coaches philosophy of our to win. So we're ending up with talented players that aren't playing well together and suffering the inconsistency that follows. That is my biggest problem with TD. In 5 years, he's not brought in Coaches or players that together would make a great team. He's more like an accountant (hopefully I;m not offending any accountants here). He's looking at the numbers and saving money and filling positions bast on who's best and at the right price, etc. So, the team is very well managed and on paper looks great - financially and talent-wise. However, we're missing the key ingredients that make up a winning team. And he can't see it because he's too busy ranking players talents and salaries and such. So, I say screw who's best in the draft. We need line help we better draft nothing but linemen.

It does baffle me as to how such a basic and well-understood element of the game can be forgotten for so long by people who's job it is to know and correct such things.

Exactly, the Superbowl is much more than just a game and therefore the league ensures the best of conditions. A few years ago I saw a Bills/Titans game in TN. I had nose bleed seats on a raw, windy day with constant rain. It was one of the best games I ever saw. Imagine a Superbowl on a frozen field with snow covering the hash marks and the wind whipping the bowl around. What a great dream that would be. Who doesn't love watching a good muddy game in the driving rain or a snowbowl game? It adds an element of uncertainty to the game that you feel even greater about if your team can over come not only the other team but nature, itself.

Exactly. I see all of these guys as decent backups. The reason we suck so bad is all our starters are other teams backups.