Dan

I agree there's still plenty of time for really truly sucky people to be hired before we start the we're doomed threads.

I said something quite similar just about a year ago (not so wordy though). And that is why I'm in favor of TD and MM being fired now. In my opinion, they did nothing to help the team grow over the past year. In fact, I think they may have actually set the team back with all the inconsistent and poor decision making.

Seeing that the general consensus of threads at the time of MM's hiring were in favor of that move and singing his praises, I'm viewing the number of people upset with the hiring of Marv and his age as a sure promise of good things to come in 2006. (My memory's really not that good, but I think most threads about TD when he was hired were positive on him as well and how he'd deliver us from the rotten fruits of Butler's labors. If someone with a better memory could confirm that then it'd really be a good sign.)

I think you've hit on it exactly. One of the biggest problems with the Bills over the last 5 years has been with the front office. Marv may be alot of things; he may also not be alot of things. But one thing I think he does almost immediately is address the problems in the front office. He'll definitely bring back order and class to the organization while keeping the team focused in the right direction. And that is what we've been missing more than any player over the last several years. I also suspect Marv will weigh in heavily on a whole host of personnel decisions, including if not especially MM; which would certainly explain the hestitation to say anything defininitive aboiut any of the coaches. This is exactly what we needed. Someone who's intelligent, a good evaluator of what the team needs, and a man that very people can ignore or discredit.

But to say JP looked bad and should be benched, is like saying Drew looked bad and should be cut. A year later we all see that Drew wasn't completely washed up and his decline here was due to factors other than in his control. Why not bench half our starters? They all suck.

I must say I truely disliked the hiring of MM. But then after apparently holding the team together in '04 and getting us back to respectablilty, I thought maybe I was wrong. Then after the benching of JP - the guy we were sold on as being so great. I begin second guessing him as a coach. Now, after the back and forth and waivering and then letting players like Moulds influence the decision, I have zero respect for him as a head coach. He'll have to really turn things around for a few years, before I change my mind and give him the benefit of the doubt again.

I think anyone banking on TD and MM being fired needs to be prepared for the worst. There's been no indication from OBD that they're being canned. It's all been from the press and by us fans. By all accounts, this team is profitable and still shows signs it can win (aka Cincy game). I've been wating for years for TD to be gone and 5 years for a real coach to be here. And I have all the confidence in the world that at this time next year, I'll still be waiting for someone to be hired that has a clue on how to win football games. I'll even be surprised is we have more than 2 new offensive lineman next year. We'll get the same song and dance; they may drop 2 new guys on the line, but we'll still have the same retreads gettting blown over and wondering why KH can't repeat his marvelous 300 yard game from last year. It must be that he's getting old - maybe a young mobile qb is what we need.

I see this concept as being one of our problems under TD - drafting/signing the best available athlete. What that leaves us with is a group of good athletes, minus a team of players. Now, I can't remember everything by any means, but I seem to recall our team through much of the 90's drafting and signing free agents that fit into our team, that Marv liked and that filled positions that we needed better personnel at. Much like the Patriots do now. In the end we always had a good team, that played competivitely. Over the last several years, we draft/sign the best player at the time. But, we're not addressing what the team needs are, nor are we bringing in players that fit into the coaches philosophy of our to win. So we're ending up with talented players that aren't playing well together and suffering the inconsistency that follows. That is my biggest problem with TD. In 5 years, he's not brought in Coaches or players that together would make a great team. He's more like an accountant (hopefully I;m not offending any accountants here). He's looking at the numbers and saving money and filling positions bast on who's best and at the right price, etc. So, the team is very well managed and on paper looks great - financially and talent-wise. However, we're missing the key ingredients that make up a winning team. And he can't see it because he's too busy ranking players talents and salaries and such. So, I say screw who's best in the draft. We need line help we better draft nothing but linemen.

It does baffle me as to how such a basic and well-understood element of the game can be forgotten for so long by people who's job it is to know and correct such things.

Exactly, the Superbowl is much more than just a game and therefore the league ensures the best of conditions. A few years ago I saw a Bills/Titans game in TN. I had nose bleed seats on a raw, windy day with constant rain. It was one of the best games I ever saw. Imagine a Superbowl on a frozen field with snow covering the hash marks and the wind whipping the bowl around. What a great dream that would be. Who doesn't love watching a good muddy game in the driving rain or a snowbowl game? It adds an element of uncertainty to the game that you feel even greater about if your team can over come not only the other team but nature, itself.

Exactly. I see all of these guys as decent backups. The reason we suck so bad is all our starters are other teams backups.

These are all some good points about how to continually find and keep a quality starting QB. However, the biggest mistake, that is also the most common mistake, is assuming that you need to find top QB. What you need, and what ALL good QBs have (and have always had) are good offensive lines. Without a good line, any QB will fall apart. Look no further than Kelly. He was a HOF QB. When his line began falling apart, so did his play. Why was Elway able to play so much longer - look no further than the 5 guys in front of him. The only QB with any success here in the last decade has been Futie (which still amazes me why so many people dislike him). And he won games only because his career was built on running around scrambling for his life which is all a QB can do behind a piss poor o-line. So, although I agree with much of what's been said here. IMO, the Bills biggest problem for years has been the neglecting of the offensive line. Either we upgrade the line or we get a scrambling run-first oriented Qb, its that simple.

Here in lies the problem with this team for years - the belief that we just need to tweak a few positions here and there and all will be ok. Because so and so isn't that bad, he just needs more coaching. Because this guy was good and just had a bad year. Because that guy has potential he just needs time to realize it. Well, after years of mediocrity, can anyone really say that ANY player on our team is worth keeping? Now, I'm not suggesting that we dump everyone. Certainly some players are good. But let's take a few examples, Clements - he's a good corner and we should definitely try to keep him. But is he a top 3 corner, absolutely not. So, if he doesn't want to deal that screw him. Moulds - he's a good reciever, sure. But, if he's going to cop an attitude every time the coaches make a decision that he doesn't like then he should be gone. Anyone on the O-line - none of these guys are starters in this league. IMO, they all need to be replaced or back ups next season, with the possible exception of Peters. Let's face it no one on this team has shown that they're indispensable with their play. As far as JP goes. I'd rather have a qb of the future that provides consistent play and leader ship for the next 10-15 years, than a journeyman QB that gives an 8-8, 9-7 type season for the next 2 years. But, if you go with JP, you have to realize we're probably going to suck for a year or 2. When they dumped Bledsoe last year, I should have taken bets; because no way did I think JP was going to get us in the playoffs this year. But everyone was so sure Bledsoe was the reason we didn't make it. So, I'm not totally upset with our record this year. I saw JP as possibly getting us to 8-8 - if a few balls bounce our way we're 10-6 (like most everyone seemd to thing we'd be); if a few balls don't bounce our way we're 6-10 (more along the lines of what I expected). The biggest problem I have with JP is we didn't stick with him and let him take his lumps. All we've done is dramatically delay the team's development (not just his). A year has gone by and still noone (not the coaches, notthe fans, and not the other players) is sure whether JP is the consistent QB a team needs. So, there's still this big question mark hanging over perhaps the most critical position on the team. So, now what will we get - another off season thinking just get one or 2 players, tweak this, put a band-aid over that, keep the players that we love (because they used to be great or because we want them to be great), keep the cheap players, and maybe we can spin it for another year. Building a team should be quite simple - get a front office that can evaluate players (and not just on talent, but on how they fit into your team); get a coaching staff that can inspire and develop game plans for the players they have (not the players they want to have); keep veteran players that have proven to be above average AND buy into your team's philosophy and style of play; bring in free agents and rookies that appear to be promising AND buy into your team's philosophy and style of play. The problem with the Bills as I see it is that we don't seem to have any of that right now. And perhaps the most important aspect - a team philosophy and style of play - that players and coaches can buy into and rally behind, is sadly missing. We seem to have a whole bunch of talent and staff all running in different directions and none of them are sure how to focus their talents and time.

Reed better be on a long list of pathetic players that need to be elswhere when next season starts.

Its definitely a sad state of affairs when the off season has more to offer than the regualr season. But, I'm not at all worried that many of our players may be leaving this year for various reasons. Quite honestly, over the last several years, its difficult to name more than a few players that have actually played like they deserve to be on an NFL roster. I say good riddance to bad rubbish. Although many may be good, they certainly aren't getting it done here. So clean house for all I care. That goes for management as well.

Just last night on Coachspeak, Parcells called his young running back "Dumb". " He made some dumb plays. We worked on it with him after practice and he still messed up. We'll have to fix that." That was pretty much what he said. Now why can't a coach call a player out for being dumb or screwing up? Parcells does it all the time. I think alot of our players need to be called out and openly challenged to respond. Right now they're playing lackluster, piss poor football. And it's the coaches job gto change that.

This game as been and always be a game won in the treches. If TD has done anything wrong, its his failure to build up the O and D lines. I know he's drafted a few players and brought some Free agents in, but given the poorness of our lines we need alot more attention there, period. Higher draft picks, more free agent money, something. The second thing I would argue is the head coaching. I hated the GW hiring. It proved to be a bust. I wasn't so hot on the MM hiring either, but agreed to give a while to see. Because MM did have a few things I thought going for him. Well, 1.5 years later, I'm about ready to call MM a bust as well. In my opinion, the biggest problem we currently have is the team seems outcoached and continually comes out flat when they should be pumped to play.

Forget the message and lighting a fire crap. I'd cut Reed because he sucks, has sucked, and continues to suck. Then I'd tell everyone else to shut up and start producing or else they're next. I'd finish the season with 12 scrubs playing offense and defense if I had to. But I damn sure wouldn't let slackasses like that back on my field in a Bills uniform.

I'd prefer it if he just said.. yeah we sucked ass.. and believe me the players and coaches will hear about it. Next week you'll see personell changes.

OL plane and simple. Fix that and QB, WR all that fixes itself. I really don't know the problem with the Defense. How they fell so hard, so fast is puzzling. I keep thinking all we do is blitz and teams have figured it out.. so they're killing it.. The old live by the blitz die by the blitz thing. But perhaps its deeper. I really don't know. Maybe its just the Dline. maybe its more. I do think we need to upgrade it and the LBs. I still think Fletcher is over rated and other than him.. who else do we currently have there.

For anyone to think this team has a shot at the playoffs is beyond me. Its not even worth commenting on. The question has been for weeks and continues to be.. will we make the right adjustments to be an 8-8 team next year?

I said it yesterday during the second quarter and I'll say it again... MM should have benched half the team and docked them half a game check. They absolutely did nothing to earn their checks. The defense was not tackling - I mean they weren't even trying to tackle. Reed's early drops! It could go on... but its all a mute point. Bench them play second stringers and practice squad players. I'll take a beating if I know they're trying. But honeslty can anyone say the team actually showed up to play? I saw almost no effort. JP looked good initially but after a few dropped passed and whiff blocks that got him creamed he even looked done by mid 3rd quarter. The same with everyone else. Its been a long time since I've seen this poor of play. IT funny every week you think it can't get much worse.. .and then it does.

last night was a rolling rock night.

This is great. So typical of the lunacy here. If a player isn't the best player to ever play at his position (and all the national media annoint him as such), then he must go because the grass is always greener elsewhere. Is WM the best running back in the league - NO. Is he currently one of the top backs, cetainly top 10, - YES. There's no way you cut him. You can't build a Superbowl team if you're always cutting your better players. We had "average" or "serviceable" running backs - Travis and Smith come to mind. But we cut them too. All NE did was take Smith and win a Superbowl. We definitely need to upgrade the Oline for WM to achieve all he's capable of. But if you cut WM and then build the line, what do you have? A great line and no running back. So then everyone is posting about how great we'd be if we could finally get a decent back. Stop the insanity. Keep the good players - at all costs. Replace the crappy ones and watch us win. It always amazes me how everyone blames Ralph and TD for not spending enough money on this position or that one or on a coach, but then when we have a player, playing in his prime, with top 5 stats - noone wants to pay him enough money to keep him. And all this talk about top backs, please. WM is in his second year and is already producing top 5 numbers. He could easily have another 5 or 6 years with this production. That's one heck of a good investment. I'd take that over a 1 year flash in the pan like Lewis any day of the week. Bottom line WM is currently, and for the fore seeable future a ttop 5 running back. Keep him and move on to another position to upgrade. Simple as that.

Watching the game on TV with the rest of my family. By then we had started all moving away (I was in college) and it was one of the few times we had all gotten together in the last few years. There's me, my parents, my 5 brother and 4 sisters, and various spouses/boyfriends crouded into my parents living room watching the Bills get blown away. Half time was a miserable state with my mom, the eternal optimistm, saying we could still come back. I secretly thought we could too, but never said so out loud for fear of jinxing anything. I spent the half time pacing in the kitchen, praying for a miracle. After the early interception and score by Houston. It became a joke. Well they only need 5 touchdowns. Hey, it could happen. That was probably about as low as I had felt watching a Bills game since they won the Superbowl against the Giants, but somehow everyone thought Norwood's kick missed. Then as the game turned and with every play it seemed as though we were literally watching a mircale happen. The Reed touchdown was probably my most memorable moment and then I remember dancing around the house with my family, with the TV going and "It Pandemonium! Its Fandemonium!" IT was great. We were singing the Shout song and partying - it was great. At one point we were screaming and dancing so loud our neighbors came out from across the street looking around to see what all the commotion was about. After we finally won, we literally ran around screaming and danced out in the front yard - now all our neighbors knew we were nuts. Not only was it one of the best games I ever watched, but it was one of the best family memories I have. It truly was a miracle. And to this day gives me hope that when everything seems miserable and unwinnable, that maybe things will just turn around. Because you just never know....