Dan

Ok. So trade with the someone in the mid teens then and take the guy there. I completely agree that Marv didn't make this mess. But he needs to fix it. And it can't be fixed with a new QB or safety. We've ignoree bringing in any solid linemen in for far too long and that directly correlates to our losing.

True and while its out picking up the groceries, someone else is winning the race.

Precisely, right on target. I couldn't agree more. The core of this team is by far the most neglected segment of the team. Sure we may need depth or a "star" here and there. But, we have absolutely nothing on either line - save 1 or 2 players. Think about that - there's 5 offensive linemen and we have only 1 true starter. Tell me how you can ever expect to win with a crap line like that.

I agree. I wouldn't trade up either. We need all the picks we can get. But no way do you trade out of the 1st round either. I mean, yeah we need picks. But come on. Do you pass on Ferari, just so you can have 2 or 3 Taurus'?

Drafting a Safety would be about as bad as drafting a QB at 8. IT would totally suck @3s. We need linemen. And although a lineman isn't necessarily the same kind of star that a QB or RB is, a top tier perrenial pro bowl lineman is something that would be nice to have. Not to mention, good linemen make your stars, stars. So, for me, anything less than a lineman and then I'll start to get a little pissed about the offseason. I'll take a possible exception to Hawk. We really don't have great linebackers, despite the hipe. So drafting him (if available) wouldn't be a total disappointment.. Other than that, I want an new offensive line!

Throw in some free beer and you got a deal.

Alot of things would suddenly make sense.... no big FA hires, trading Moulds to save money, lots of cap space...hmmm

Anything is better than what was on the field last December. But have they actually progressed? Who can say before week 5 or 6 or the regular season.

I agree. Isn't that kinda like a QB saying I want to be just like Trent Dilfer.

Screw that, demand their second and a pick next year. When they balk, tell them to try drafting a WR in the 4th round that will contribute as much as Moulds next year. Then after a few days of negatiating, begrudgingly settle for a 3rd this year.

I've felt this way for years. I'd love to see us draft nothing but linemen. Everyone says the draft his a crap shoot. So, why not just draft every lineman you can and hope a few pan out. Since the dawn of time, everyone knows this game is won in the trenches. Gloss it over all you want, but that fact still remains. Improve the lines and the skill players will suddenly appear.

I completely agree with this statement. A good young QB, a good young reciever, a good young RB. All we need is a good young line and we're in great shape in my opinion. However, I am hopeful that prior to the first preseason game there will be an overwhelming call to trade Willis because .... (you can fill in any one of a dozen reasons). There's already been a few.

I think you give Marv and Co. as long as it takes. I agree you don't want to get into the routine of tearing apart and starting over every few years. But, but, you have to see something - some sort of improvement. The problem with TD and Co. was that we weren't seeing anything. In fact, I would say it was kind of like smoke and mirrors. Everything looked ok and seemed good. But last season the wheels really fell off the wagon. And suddenly, a team that looked ok was a team in complete disarray. Now take Cowart and the Steelers for example. Cowart has been there for quite a while and they're not always in the Championship game. However, they always show something. They're a good competitive team each year. So although they may not be in the Superbowl, you don't dimantle it and try something new. They stuck with it, and eventually it paid off. So that's what I say. You stick with Marv as long as he's fielding good teams and we look competitve. Playoffs and Superbowls shouldn't be the final measure of success. Having a good team that plays well and palys competitively week in and out, should be the measure. If you do that, the playoffs will come. And if you really get lucky so will the Superbowl. Would you fire Dungy and everyone in Indy because they can't get to the Superbowl? I'd hope if the Bills ever got to the point Indy is now, that wouldn't even be thought of.

What is this insight based upon?

What's it say when the punter has more votes than the running back.

Given that everyone seemed to think that last year we were headed for the playoffs. And then we sucked. Now, it seems most think we'll suck. So, I'm suddenly feelign better about hittin 8-8 next year.

I like sleeping in on Sunday. So East Coast works great! I was on the West coast for a Sunday last fall... damned if I didn't miss most of the 1st quarter. 10am is way too early for me. How do you even see any of the pregame?

If signing players like TO means we're trying to win now. I'd vote every day to be a loser. I'd find it very hard to root for a team like Dallas. Sure they may win, but sometimes you have to wiegh the cost of winning against the cost of being a winner.

Therein lies the problem. Too many people thought we were a playoff team last year. Too many thought JP wouldn't experience rookie-itis. Too many people think it only takes one player to make the team. For those of us, like myself, that knew we weren't going to the playoffs last year; that know we're not going to the playoffs this year; this offseason is little easier. We realize that it takes more than one big name free agent to build a team. So we're willing to take a more "wait and see" approach to Marv and Co. So has this been a great off season.. I'll tell you in November or December. Has this been a bust offseason? Absolutely not. We got rid of MM and co. That in itself is a step forward.

And this completely sums up my point of view this off season. For a variety of reasons, our current players haven't gotten the job done. Like it or not, the Bills are known more for losing than for winning. We need to change that, and getting new players may just be the best way. I appreciate all the greatness Eric and others have gave us over the years. But its not working. We need a change. Will we be in the playoffs next year? Who cares. I just want us to turn around this losing mentality. First things first.

I can't even read all this, nor should I. Anyone advocating this trade just spent all their credibility. We give our top receiver and 2 picks. They give their top receiver and 1 pick. Let me simplify the math 3=2. How is that something anyone other than a Packer fan would like?!? Unless you argue that Walker is twice as good as Moulds, which we know that's not that case, this is complete bunk. Maybe, maybe you consider it if we give up 1 pick and they give up 2. Then we could entertain the thought of whether or not we want Walker.

I think the negativity stems more out of frustration than anything else. Trust me, if we win the first 2 games the entire mood of the board will change. Of course, you'll still have a few idiots saying its only 2 games, they were bad opponents, or something like that. But I guess that's how it always goes. It really seems to be worse this offseason than in the past. I'm not sure why. But believe me this is perhaps the most knowledgeable boards out there, you just have to weed through the crap. I've been coming for years, trust me you'll come to enjoy it. Just wait till the season starts!

Exactly. Trade 2 of our guys (Moulds and a draft pick) for one of theirs, That makes no sense to me. Moulds may be alot of things but he's definitely got at least 1 or 2 really good years left. Whoever gets him get s a proven commodity. What do we get a crap shoot draft pick. I go to the table and say we want their first 2 picks and that DT guy. see what they say to that.

This is perhaps the best thread I've read in quite some time. Thank you. I agree "fielding a team we're proud of" is likely all we're heading for next season. However, I'll take that any day over a team full of TOs. In my opinion, the best thing about the Levy led Bills of the 90s - they were a team Icould be proud of. Despite the wins and losses. I liked the players, I liked the coaches. And I'll settle for that again.... for now.

True. excellent point about Polian. But maybe its just because he has that bum Dungy. If only he could hire Jimmy Johnson as his coach then he'd win the superbowl for like 20 years in a row.