Dan

See my post above... I've seen several games at Fenway. None were against the Yankees and all I witnessed multiple fights.

Living in RI for 7 years I went to several events at Foxboro and Fenway. I've always considered those some of the roughest crowds ever. Never once was there not mutlple fights for one stupid reason or another. Even for concerts. By far the worst crowds I've seen at games or concerts. For reference, I've seen games (of various kinds) in Chicago, Baltimore, Nashville, New Orleans, Memphis, St. Louis. Granted not alot of games. And, unfortunately, no games at Rich Stadium. (perhaps someday) All this however, still doesn't excuse the fact that this behavior is wrong and is too often accepted. Half the posts here, still say "they got what they deserved" or something to that effect. I find that disheartening. All I can say is next time we want to talk about "classless" fans in Miami or NE or anywhere else, I suggest a long look in the mirror to make sure we're not talking about ourselves as well.

Excellent perspective! My early memories of Kelly (understand I have a hard time remembering what I had for breakfast yesterday) were cursing him relentlessly for all the ill-timed interceptions. It was years before my Mom liked him. I don't think my Grandmother ever did. I also very much remember almost every time he threw the ball, even during the Superbowl years, holding my breath thinking it would be intercepted. And we all know how Kelly's career turned out. So, what am I trying to say? Just that first impressions aren't always the best impressions. Sometimes you just have to give people (and in this case teams) a little time. The real question is how much time do you give? I'd suggest the "standard" for assessing a GM is roughly 3 years. So, Levy gets about 3yrs in my book before I start wanting change. JP and many of the other players get about the same amount of time - unless they show absolutely nothing. But, keep in mind regarding players, much of what they show, we as fans cannot see. Their leadership, their team chemistry, their desire are just a few. So, we really have ot rely on the coaches more for player assesments.

If it pisses Kornhole off, I'm all for it! Hell make it open air.

Actually, I'm feeling somewhat connected to the aura surrounding Losman. So, I'm feelin the team more and more. Maybe that's the coaches delimma; they haven't perfected the aura meter just yet. Seriously though... JP is not going anywhere soon. Everyone saying he's regressing, let's give Nall a shot; let's draft a QB - you're not watching the games and, more importantly, you're not listening to te head coach. Jauron has said repeatedly, he has to be patient with JP. More recently, he's said JP needs to correct his mistakes, but he's "going to be good". Clearly, Jauron likes JP (maybe he connects with his aura). He see's him progressing. And he's decided to give JP ample time to develop. So, everyone needs to just realize these facts and learn to live with it. If you want JP gone, I'd suggest you start hoping for the caoching staff to be fired, because it seems to me they like the guy.

I understand what you're saying. I just think people saying he probably provoked it; therefore what do you expect.... is wrong in every sense. If I may offer (as devil's advocate only) regarding the timing and photo: Perhaps it took 10 days, because the guys been laid up recovering? Perhaps other bruises to the body are covered by his shirt? The picture was probably taken yesterday. I've been interviewed and in multiple papers around the country; typically, they've written the story and taken any photos all in one day with an evening deadline to make the next day's paper. Sometimes, the story is written and then the editor sends a photographer out to get a shot to go with it, so they could hold the story for a day..at most. Granted this is not a high profile piece, so it could be a different timeline than what I've experienced.

Sometimes change is needed to stave off complacency.

I'm not sure what's worse, the fact that this happened (at least in part, I agree it may not have happened as the article stated) or the fact that people here are trying to make excuses for it. There is no excuse. It reminds me a little of the Miami fight durign the game and everyone here saying how bad those guys were and should be in jail, etc. And the players excuse was...we're just defending ourselves. That was deplorable behavior and so is this. As some have stated, this goes on at all stadiums. But, I think people should stop trying to say how much worse Foxboro is or Philly; apparently Buffalo is just as bad as any of them. I've always watched idiots rioting in the streets after their team finally wins the Super Bowl/Stanley Cup/World Series/etc. and I've always wondered would Buffalo fans put on such a moronic display if the Bills win a Super Bowl. I guess now I have my answer. And as happy as I'll be that day, it will be diminished to see fires and looting in the streets with the excuse that we were just celebrating.

A-friggin-men!

I actually turned the game off at half time. How bad is that!?!

Listening and understanding are lost artforms. I also think that all too often people make up their mind before they know all the facts or see all the possibilities. Therefore, they get in a corner and make erroneous statments.

Do you throw one season... or even 2.. away; if that will allow your players to develop thereby giving you 5+ years of Super Bowl contention? Do you blow up your team every season, bringing in new guys and hoping to get lucky thereby giving you 1 year of Super Bowl contention? I think that's the basis of this arguement and at the root of starting or benching JP. For me, its an easy decision.

I'm in complete agreement. I might add though, if winning a Super Bowl was the criteria for measuring greatness, no Bill would ever be in the HOF nor considered great. You'd think that posters on a Bills' board would appreciate that more than just about any one. The one thing I will say though is that Manning, much like Elway, exemplifies exactly what makes football so great - its a team sport. As great as Manning may be, he'll never win a Super Bowl until they get a great team around him. One player can only take a team so far. That's why I like football so much, and that's why building through free agency is rarely a sure way to get to the Super Bowl.

What's that make Buffalo?

I agree with some, Sunday without the Bills is not the same. I spent the day finishing my master bedroom/bathroom renovation and watching snippets of the games in between. I did catch the final 4-5 minutes of the Colts/Broncs game. Basically, without the Bills, Sunday becomes just another day to get crap done. I alao agree with some, Peyton is a great QB. He's definitely one of the best - of all time, not just today. Anyone that doesn't think so is just confused. I've liked him since day one in the league and he continues to impress. Hopefully, the Colts win the Superbowl this year. Not only will it occur in a year when the Bills have zero shot of even making the playoffs, but perhaps it'll quiet some of the anti-Peytonites (although I doubt it).

I think that sums up a huge problem with our offense. First, we have a player on the field that does little to help the play; therefore, when he's on the field we're a man down. Second, he tips the play to the defense; therefore, its harder to be successful with that play. Take Shelton out and put another possible receiver out their (TE) and JP has another option if its a pass. If its a run, you still have a blocker. Essentially, you've just made the offense less predictable and put a player on the field that may actually contribute.

don't mean to single either of you out because you're not the first one's to do so, but i've noticed a disturbing trend lately. someone question's JP they automatically get flamed and labeled a JP hater 819553[/snapback] But this thread isn't about questioning JP... it's about benching him because he's the one reason why the team is throwing the entire season away. Big difference. There are many threads (and individual posts) that question JP and his play which are good and worthwhile. This, however, is not one of them.

So you want to put someone else in..who's not the answer, just to get another 2-3 wins?! What's the point of that? Wow, I'm sure Evans would be delighted to win those extra 2 games! Either way, he's not in the playoffs. You know what this entire thread is...

Why is Willis fair game, but Evans and Peters are hands off? It seems like if we're taking this approach you take whatever trades you can get. What if someone is offering us 2 picks for Evans or Peters? Seems like we should take that, then. I would consider both of them in the same class as Willis, good, but not great players.

In essence, I agree with you're arguement about the Patriots. However, there's one slight problem with this reasoning, at this point. The Patriots are a solid team with a strong core of players. Therefore, they can more easily bring in new guys and stay consistent. The Bills, on the other hand, have no core. Consequently, if we trade Willis , for example, and draft another RB; when would we draft the lineman, the TE, the LB, etc. We have simply have too many holes to let good solid players go yet. As I recall, the Patriots, as they were builing their Super Bowl teams, didn't let players go as easily. It's only been in recent years. They did, however, bring in good, solid players that just performed. Look at Antwain Smith, our no good RB, they bring him in and go get to the Super Bowl with him as the feature back, he wasn't great, but he was solid. So, if we really wanted to emulate the Patriots success, Willis is defintely someone you keep - at least until you have a solid QB, line and TE. Then you can think about a new RB. This was much of TD's problem. He drafted Travis - a good but not great back. But rather than address other issues in later drafts; he picks Willis. He has Drew, a good but not great QB, so he fradt JP. He trades Peerless and drafts Parish. In other words he was spinning his wheels - not building but simply replacing one good player with another good player. So I say, lets not go after flash, lets keep the good players we have and try to draft and sign new players to replace the bad ones on the line, etc. first. We can worry about Willis and his attitude in a few years.

For the season opener, I was in Harrisburg, PA. So, I had to watch the game in a sports bar downtown. Just as the game is about to start, of all things, a guy comes in with a Coy Wire jersey on. I almost choked on my beer. Anyhow, that's what I remeber thinking at the time..... I think I just found the world's last Coy Wire fan hiding out in a bar in Harrisburg, PA.

He seems to do well when given the chance. He certainly showed some skills on thaty one big catch. I know we need TEs in to help block, but I also think he could be a decent passing threat for us. I think we definitely need to get him more involved in the game - other than just blocking.

I completely agree with you, but just about every young QB has these same problems. In addition, he doesn't see open receivers all the time either. Usually, with playing time, the game starts to slow down and all these problems disappear. I'm hopeful that with playing time, that is what we'll also see with JP. I am optimistic having seen the improvement in his play from last year to this year.

I was thinking the same thing while reading that article. It's good to see him own up to his share of the blame. I think it also shows a certain amount of confidence in him that his job as starter isn't in jeapardy. It's also the type of thing that a team leader does; he takes the heat and stands up for his teammates. All good things to see from in the progression of a young QB.

If Peters does Pan out and become a sold tackle, at some point he'll stop just being happy to be playing and start wanting to get what he thinks he deserves. Its only human nature. So, I think we'd have to consider giving him a raise at some point. It'd be a recipe for disgruntlement if we have a Guard (supposedly a lesser paid position) making much more than the Tackle (supposedly the higher paid position).