Kirby Jackson

Let’s look at the facts: The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t. They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. * Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %). I’m not sure how e can look at these concrete facts or the EPA from @GoBills808 and try to form a different conclusion? The facts say that the passing game, scoring and winning are all way better in Cooper games despite playing superior teams.

I’m not a coach. I assume that they want Hollins and Coleman out there to block. The one thing that can’t be argued are the passing numbers in games with Cooper vs. without. They are posted throughout the last couple of pages. There is no opinion there. Those are facts. The passing game, scoring, and record, despite playing much better teams, have all been superior in the games where Cooper has played. I don’t disagree with facts. The Houston game the passing attack was atrocious. The Ravens just jammed the middle of the field and dared the Bills to win on the boundary. They said as much. The Bills adjusted and got Cooper. He’s won outside for years. Since that point, it has unlocked a different level on the offense (again check the numbers on the last few pages). People looking at his stats without looking at the offensive stats in those games are choosing to do so to make them more right about the WR group. They are still just average and they were well below average prior to Amari. Samuel hasn’t played well but he’s the guy that they thought he was. He has always been a gadget guy. As an Ohio State fan, I tried to tell that to everyone. Some tried to say, “no he is a wide receiver.” He still has a role here but his skill set was redundant with Shakir.

I guess that the question to that is were they as bad as some of us thought? The backs and TEs were always okay. The WRs were not good though. The passing game was shut down and they traded for a number 1. The numbers in the games that he’s played have been substantially better. Now the WRs are an average unit and the backs & tes are above average as receivers. The OL is top 5. The QB is otherworldly. The OC has been sensational. The offense has been excellent. That doesn’t mean that the wide receivers are/or have been good. They’ve been fine.

I remember that guy!! I assumed that it was authentic & maybe not all there.

I go onto other teams boards, that we are about to play, during the year to read their perspective on the Bills. I don’t sign up or anything. Every other board has a handful of Bills fans and they are usually jerks.

Yeah there are a few. Generally, they get eviscerated and disappear.

Yep, the contract situation was huge. The Bills were actively trying to get someone atop the depth chart but hands were a little tied by the cap. The structure of Cooper’s contract probably made him go for a 3 instead of a 4 or 5 but the Bills had no choice. It’s really worked out well and opened up the field.

I’ve said that you needed a number 1 and still believe that. I think Beane believes that. That’s why he parted with a 3rd round pick. Cooper was targeted 14 times 2 weeks ago. The attention that he receives opens things up for others. When it’s 3rd down and they need someone to “go win their matchup” it’s him that they are looking to. Beane didn’t believe that the room “quietly got better.” Beane made an aggressive move to get someone that can consistently win on the boundary. That was lacking. That added dimension has opened up the offense. Whether people want to believe it or not the numbers support it. The Bills have averaged 37 PPG in the games that Cooper has played for them. They’ve averaged 28 PPG in the games that he didn’t. They averaged 204 passing yards per game in the 8 games without Cooper in the lineup and 286 passing yards per game in the 6 games with Cooper. Allen has thrown 12 TDs in the 6 games with Cooper and 13 TDs in the 8 games without him. * Also the teams that Cooper played against are 50 - 34 (.595 win %). The games that he didn’t those teams have a record of 50 - 62 (.446 win %).

That’s the insane part. I cheer for Ryan Day, Sean McDermott and Aaron Boone. 😂😂 I expect them to make crazy mistakes and hope that the talent overcomes it.

Lol, there is no context lacking. Those are your words. 13 years of 900 yards may land him on the WOF. He won’t even get to the HOF ballot. He’s a top 5 slot receiver right now imo. That’s really good. There are 30+ current NFL WRs more likely to go to the HOF. Here’s a good tool for you to monitor over the next 13 years: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_WR.htm. Use that for perspective as to HOF trajectory.

This just feels like a no win situation. I have so little confidence in Day. I think that they show up this week like the UGA playoff game from a couple of years ago. That Georgia team was awesome and the Bucks outplayed them. If that happens here, they’ll win by 2 scores. If they show up a little blah, they’ll get beat and that’s a nightmare for the program. If they win this weekend, they’ll beat Oregon IMO.

ND SMU Texas OSU

Lol, this level of hyperbole is why I have remained so active in this thread. I love Shakir. If you take his per game stats from this year, and extrapolate them out, OVER 10 years without missing a single game, he will have less career receding yards than Donald Driver and Santana Moss. He will tie Curtis Conway with the 130th most receiving TDs in history. He isn’t destined for the HOF. 😂😂 He is a rich man’s Beasley. I’m a little confused as to whether Coleman is going to the HOF or just the Pro Bowl? He currently has the 50th most receiving yards per game in the NFL. Future HOFer, Khalil Shakir is 36th in receiving yards per game. Start fitting them for gold jackets now!! 😂😂

It’s odd that some people are trying to dance in the end zone in this thread. So many are confusing the elite offense with good WRs. I don’t have the energy to pull the WR stats and compare them to other teams. Other teams have worse QBs and worse OLs and better WRs. We shouldn’t confuse an elite offense with elite WRs. They’ve largely been who we thought they’d be. The question was, “will these weak WRs be their downfall?” That hasn’t been the case because of Brady/Josh/OL. It hasn’t been because they were miraculously better than we expected. Allen is going to throw for 4,000 yards without a 1,000 yard receiver.

I’m only speaking for my strong opinion on the topic. I said that it was a bottom 3 WR room with a ceiling of like 22. If we look at it objectively, that may not be far off (at least prior to Cooper). Shakir has become a high end slot. Samuel has been a disaster. Mack has been a good blocker and made some tough catches. He’s a 4 at best. Coleman has been just a guy. It isn’t different than anyone expected. The only thing that is surprising is a negative and that’s Samuel’s contributions. Lol, only Shakir had more than 1 catch last week!! Josh has just been a different level of elite. I’d add the OL to the conversation as well. They’ve been excellent. Josh has had CRAZY time to make plays. Even average NFL receivers can find space if they have 4+ seconds. The offense has worked because of Josh, Brady and the OL. The backs are pretty good as well. That was the plan and it is working. The offense being elite doesn’t mean that this WR group is.

We all agree with that. Just trying to not move the goal posts. This conversation, and the title of the thread is about the “WR room.” It isn’t about “the pass catchers.” They were always better than the WRs. Those aren’t interchangeable.

Again, all fine and good. Once he was considered the 5th best player and the other time the 2nd best player. Bruce and Thurman each finished ahead of him. Lamar has twice been considered the MVP & this year he will be top 3. He’s been in the league 7 years. He is regularly considered one of the best players in the league. Kelly didn’t hit the ballot in any other year based on what I saw. He’s more Goff or Hurts than Allen/Lamar/Mahomes. Depending on how you view Aikman, Moon, Young, etc… determines where Kelly was in his own era. He is definitely behind Marino, Montana and Elway. 4 is the ceiling. We obviously remember him fondly because he was the QB of the best teams in franchise history. He was a piece but as you mentioned, players like Thurman were better. Bruce obviously was as well.

Well the game evolves both ways. You have to look at where they are vs. their peers. The point is Lamar has consistently been viewed as one of the best few players in the league. He has 2 MVPs and will have another top 3 appearance this year. He’s elite in his era. Kelly didn’t have 2 MVPs and another top 3 finish (within his first 7 years). Let’s not overthink it. Some people are trying to take skill sets and drop them into different eras. That’s not possible because the game evolves. “How did they compare vs. their contemporaries?” Kelly was never the top player.

I guess the way that I view cross-generational comparisons are with people at their peaks (assuming that it isn’t a Linsanity like timeframe). Lamar at his best, is well ahead of Kelly at his best. He’s won 2 MVPs (1 was soft but if he won this year it would be legit). There was never a time that Kelly was at that level compared to the league. He once finished 2nd & once 5th. Both times, a member of his own team finished ahead of him. Kelly was a great player. We just remember him better than he was. He was more like a Goff/Hurts than an Allen/Lamar.

Rock star

Nope, they are irrelevant. KC is the biggest rival now. Miami is the most hated other than potentially KC.

I’m struggling with how anyone could argue that he was more impactful than Lamar?

Who said he was a backup? That’s insanity. It’s equally insane to believe that he would be a top 3 guy in this elite QB era. He wasn’t a top 3 guy in his era (Marino, Elway, Montana). Anywhere in 4-12 feels okay. I really don’t know the question that I’m asking. I guess that it is, “20 years from now, a young fan asks someone that is 70, and would have seen both primes, which one was better?” I think you did a nice job laying it out.

Who is the better QB historically Jim Kelly or Matt Stafford? I don’t know the right answer but it feels interesting.

This is a tough question. I voted Dawkins because I think that the OL has been the 2nd best player on the team. More specifically, the tackles have been elite. I picked the guy responsible for Josh’s blindside.