Kirby Jackson

It’s both!! That’s the point. It was both for all of those guys. The salary cap era is way more difficult to win consistently. They had to make decisions along the way that other franchises didn’t. They lost Seymour, Law, Milloy, etc... Brown, Walsh, Shula, etc.. never had to do that. They could keep their best talent together. They all won with great QBs. We can’t pick and choose when it’s the QB and when it’s the coach. Belichick just won more and with more difficult situation.

Yep and Brown/Graham won 3, Walsh/Montana 3, Shula/Marino 0 and Belichick/Brady 6. So basically those other tandems would have had to produce the same output over the next 10 years (ie 30% of the Super Bowls) to keep pace. BB did that while turning over the roster and coaching staff. I’m sorry, but there really isn’t much of a debate at this point. I hate Belichick. I find him to be smug and condescending. With that being said, I’m over trying to discredit his incredible career. Tip my cap and move on. Hopefully he hangs up the whistle soon.

Brown had Otto Graham, Walsh had Montana and Shula had Dan Marino. All of those QBs also made the NFL 100 QB list. It’s not like those guys won with bad QBs. We all hate BB but let’s not pretend that he’s anything other than the best ever. He has had more roadblocks than anyone else (just the nature of a hard salary cap). The system is designed to level the playing field. He has won more big games than anyone else despite playing in that system.

When teams had no turnover it was WAY easier. It’s the Red Auerbach argument. He, like Paul Brown, deserves credit but it’s much easier to win when your team is always better. BB doesn’t have that luxury in the salary cap era. In fact, he has it harder than other contemporaries. Team’s that win consistently end up with players who are overpaid to leave. Guys like Nate Solder and Jamie Collins come to mind. He has also turned over parts of his coaching staff a few different times. The Patriots are constantly tweaking things to remain at the top.

Belichick is still 1. I hate him but he has been to 9 Super Bowls and won 6. He’s won 31 playoff games. He did this in the free agency era. It’s BB and everyone else.

Belichick has to be number 1

On order of when they should go up (only guys that I’ve seen): - Bennett (WAY overdue...the 4th best player on the Super Bowl teams in my opinion) - Brown (overrated or not he played in 8 straight pro bowls and was a 4 time All-pro as a member of the Bills. If Richter is up there Brown DEFINITELY is) - Moulds (3 pro bowls, 2 all-pros and dominant stretches) - Kyle (heart and soul of the team, 6x pro bowl) - Schobel (better than Hansen, 78 sacks, 2 Pro Bowls) - Fred (Leader of the team and consistently good player) - Moorman (2 pro bowl, 2 all-pro and best community guy in franchise history) - Takeo Spikes (short stretch of dominance)

Can I throw Rueben Brown out there? His career was far superior to guys like Richter who are up there.

So I fired today at Oaklawn. I got killed...

4d chess

They are in nickel like 60% of the time or something like that. I think that you’d have seen a ton of Dugger mostly at the expense of Klein. They would have played all 3.

I’m literally the exact opposite at this point. The Peterman nightmare aside, they went a little bit against the grain. They targeted the high upside, low floor prospect. As of right now, Allen looks like the guy to me. He wasn’t the one that I would have taken. I wanted Rosen or Baker. I think that Josh is better than both. Fromm has a chance to be a quality backup or asset. My feelings on the likelihood of that are documented but he was good value there at a position of need.

This is where I’m at. In fact, I’m more confident in the division title than the 10 wins. I’m having a really difficult time finding a path for anyone else to win the division.

This play was one of the first to pop into my head. The juke and behind the back at the same time was pretty incredible. Barry Sanders against the Bears is probably 1. Barry probably has 1/2 of the top 10.

The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. With Josh the opinions were so extreme it left a big middle. With Burrow, as an example, that doesn’t exist. The opinions were pretty consistent. There isn’t much to debate. You aren’t trying to influence people to one side or the other.

The thing with Josh (and I suspect Herbert and Love will face it) is that he was a polarizing prospect coming out. Some people LOVED him and some HATED him. It is human nature for people to want to be proven correct. The people that hated him say “see I told you he was inaccurate” whenever he misses an open receiver. The people that love him say, “see I told you he was one of the most talented QBs in the world” when he hurdles a defender in Minnesota. There were such extremes on him coming out that people get loud because they are constantly defending their strong feelings. They want to be right. I don’t suspect Joe Burrow will face that because the opinions on him were pretty consistent. People just won’t discuss him like that. No one is going to write 6,000 words on, “Why I was right about Joe Burrow.” Everyone jumps at the opportunity to be proven right about Josh. Kiper, Adam Schein and Chris Simms think he’s the second coming. PFF and the guy at The Globe thinks that he’s terrible. He was polarizing coming out and people just can’t wait to tell you why they were right.

And I totally appreciate that and do it often on here. With that being said, I don’t put anything like that on here unless I know it to be true. That is true for some others here as well. There are a lot of things that float around through PM that are things that some of us heard but aren’t sure on. If it makes it on the main board that’s because it is true. None of us want to put anything out here that they THINK is true because you subject yourself to criticism if it’s proven false. At the same time there is absolutely no benefit to being right. It’s just easier to say nothing. If there is something that you know to be true though, and it won’t be damaging if it comes out it may end up shared. This community comprises the best Bills fans in the world imo. Personally, I don’t care who chooses to believe what. Skepticism is healthy. Just know that what ends up on here as “info” is only a fraction of what’s been discussed amongst board members that hear things. Unless they are certain that it’s true it doesn’t end up here.

I mean a lot of people hear things. It’s not a very big town. There are a dozen or so people here that have connections and relationships. Is that crazy?

I prefer college football to the NFL but prefer the Bills to everything. For me it look like this: non-bills NFL game < CFB < Bills

FWIW, I trust my sources and intel at OBD over pro football talk. Look, I’m not telling you to believe. I honestly don’t care (at all). That’s totally up to you.

You might be right. I don’t know the timeline on all of these. That was an assumption on my part.

Certainly and they took one shortly thereafter and another later. I’m not saying that it was a good idea, bad idea or whatever. That’s just what @thebandit27 and I both heard independently of each other. Honestly, I was a little hesitant to post that because it was from someone plugged in but different than the people that usually talk. When Bandit said he’d heard the same thing I’m fairly certain that it was true.

Duvernay would have been the Bills 3rd player taken. This would have been after Moss and before Davis. Basically, they likely would have had Duvernay instead of a few of the guys that they took after including both receivers.

I believe too that’s why when a possible trade out got out there Beane said it was for an OL. I don’t know if that was true but know that Duvernay was. It would be pretty awkward if they tried to trade up for Duvernay, couldn’t, and then took Davis with the next pick. It’s a lot cleaner to just say an OL since they didn’t draft one. **The reasoning that Beane said an OL is speculation in my part but it makes sense.

Going into Friday they were planning on Dugger. They were willing to move up for Dugger as I understand it. They didn’t have the ammo to get that high. When he came off the board at 37 they changed course. If he was still there at 45 though (as an example) I think that he would have been the pick.