ctk232

So it’s easy to say in retrospect at a 9-3 season that x draft pick maybe would’ve mattered more than y guy in two losses this year. Especially when we all were thinking 7-9 at best this year, more likely 6-10. But frankly, in April, we needed OL - it was our biggest need entering the draft, and even with our haul in FA nothing was guaranteed. Beane made the call this year to do one thing - protect our potential franchise QB, knowing full well the choices of WR depth coming up this year. To be honest, Ford wasn’t my first OL choice, I much preferred Risner or Bradbury - but to play this game disregards so many other variables that went into that choice at that time. It’s not unsurprising for a second round OL to struggle in his rookie year, whatsoever, in fact for OL it’s pretty common. The last two weeks, he hasn’t been perfect at all, but he’s stepped up for us when we really need him to, and against two of the best DE’s in the league. I don’t regret his pick, and he has plenty of time to prove himself a right-side anchor or a bust, but I’ll take Von Miller’s unsolicited credit for face value, and be hopeful for what’s in store for him. I don’t regret “missing” on Metcalf for a single second, and I’m glad to see him tearing it up in Seattle, too.

Showing up for your team would be embarrassing? You care what other people think? Because this team doesn’t, at all. i get the context you’re insinuating, but you can be embarrassed - this was a big deal.

Alright - never mind. I stand corrected - it’s Hauschka. Need those four points guy, come on.

Forget Hauschka, ball on their 30 and we don’t gain a single yard? Mmkay.

Seems like we can’t adjust to the pre-snap motion on defense - it’s setting up their entire offensive game plan and we’re slow to match-up/read the play as a result. For supposed coaches that can’t scheme worth a damn, they did their homework on our defense pretty well. Stark contrast to when they don’t run pre-snap motion.

What was the reason they didn't want to do Friday games? High school football and TV ratings? It's only a day, but I feel like Friday night games would be a more reasonable short week for the players. TNF is only for the money anyway, so it stands to reason Friday night likely wouldn't yield the same ROI as Thursday. But I honestly can't imagine how much less/more lucrative it'd be on either day.

Really hope he's good to go - especially against this DL. It'd be a test for our OL even when fully healthy and rested, much less without Morse.

Rull interested to see how he matches up this week with covering Zeke out of the backfield on screens and checkdowns to the flats. Not an open field tackle match-up that anyone wants to see, but given how a resurgent Taron has been playing, I think he is the key piece in handling Zeke out of the backfield on screens/flat coverage and delayed short routes. That and I wonder how our rather newly implemented run blitzes and stunts fair against this OL - these to me are the two big pieces to the match-up game on a short week. This game will likely go the way of whoever can dominate the LOS on a shortened week - fortunately, our Def played a lot less on Sunday than Dallas' had to.

Those would be my top three, too. I wouldn’t hate adding an OG if it’s there - Long did well today, but he’s a role we could easily upgrade for the future. That and I hope Bates develops to take over a backup Tackle role if/when Nsekhe retires. I’m not holding my breath, but I would also love to see Shaq finish out this season strong and make a statement for pushing DE opposite Hughes over Murphy - if he can manage that, with Harry returning we may see a more well-establish front DL. Wouldn’t have to prioritize DE as much, but again, not holding my breath.

Not so much a change as it would be potential move in the future - if Morse, god forbid, goes down at all for any reason having Feliciano as a back up there is a great problem to have in a manner of speaking. What I’d also like to see is a potential draft investment in an OG/OT to upgrade Long’s role. He did fine today, but would be curious about pushing Ford inside and Bates at Tackle, or getting the draft pick at either position to help us out long term. Fwiw, Ford’s matchup today gave us plenty to worry about, and the kid handled it like a pro. Would love to see him anchor the right side in the near future, and with added OG depth I dare say we’ve built ourselves a front line.

Can't recall this being posted elsewhere, but Cover1's take on the development here provides interesting context to this conversation: https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-week-11-offensive-staff-gave-josh-allen-the-answers-to-the-test/ It's worth the read in full, but it seems it still relates to what McVay has been doing, but not necessarily via the headset chatter. To quote the article's concluding summary:

We really need to pin that to the top of the forum board - at least until next season - simple title, "KEEP THIS ALL IN CONTEXT: [...]" Regardless of schedule, sophomore QB showing marked progress and improvement in an offense returning three starters (Foster the fourth), which now only has two starters (Foster now third) from last year. Promising rookie RB. Brown and Beasley are great weapons, but first year in any offense is still a considerable adjustment for even the most veteran of starters. Expectations solidly set at 6-10, and having them happily exceeded every week (except for maybe the Browns game...still dirty)

Unless it's a single score game in the 4th quarter, I'd do exactly this until he hits a deep throw. No reason not to, especially if you're Denver with no season left to salvage at this point.

He came in during the Titans game and he held his own fine - the offensive drive that finished the game had back ups all along the right side of the line, including Bates, and was one of the few games this year where our offense put the game away late. We have depth in Bates behind Ford, but doesn't hurt to do due diligence in finding further depth in case anyone else goes down. Even though he's also a rookie with little game experience, I wouldn't sleep on Bates as depth at the very least. He apparently saw reps in the Washington game as well...would have to re-watch that one to see.

Wasn't it the Titans game we did very well with back-ups on the right side of the line when Feliciano went down, and both Nsekhe and Ford were out? I could be completely off, but I recall either that game or one other where Bates came in and held his own at RT, and enough so that we were able to finish the game off on an offensive drive - but he was in for each play. I think Ford swung inside to spell Feliciano actually, either that or Long came in and Bates/Ford rotated at RT...lawd I gotta look this up... Needless to say, I'd rather we rotate Bates in with Ford if the rotation is really that necessary. But Sunday will be a test against this DL for sure.

[sorry in advance for the novel... ] Foles is an interesting comparison to make, if only because his trajectory of success in the league seems flipped from that of Jackson. I was still in Philly when they had him heading up that offense before the other moves leading up to Wentzylvania, but he was in the same room with Vick and eventually Barkley in 2014. His success wasn't until the switch to Kelly in 2013, and while it involved the RPO with Shady I think the NFL overall was still adjusting to Kelly's new hurry-up scheme in the context of the league. Foles had some collegiate familiarity with similar systems so he was able to succeed in 2013 as a new QB in a new offense, but the next year all but spelled disaster for him including having Mark Sanchez perform better by the end of 2014. That all to say, I don't think his 2013 year success was due to him being an "RPO" system QB as much as it was the hurry-up and new look offense in the league with a solid roster. Not sure others thought that of him as well, others being the supposed media experts and league analysts. His pre-draft evaluation as I recall also wasn't boiled down to an RPO wonder/convert. His stint with the Rams and Chiefs was interesting too, since he had issues with accuracy in LA, and barely played in KC since Smith was starting. But he also seemed a fish out of water with his passing game in LA. Didn't really follow him to either team, so can't speak to his development there, if any. I was thrilled he came back to Philly though, and took them to the dance (especially against the Pats). More importantly he showed he could step in and handle a different offense than that of Kelly's RPO, more reason being that he isn't really what I'd think of as a "system" QB. I can't believe I'm saying this since I don't mean to discredit that win in the least, whatsoever, but that was also one of the weaker Pats teams in recent history - we made it to the playoffs that year with quasi-disciplined play in an unprecedented year of parity in the AFC. It was exceptional. I want to see him see the same success in Jacksonville, if he'd only stay healthy enough to see if he's found his footing as a QB in the league. But I still don't know that I'd equate his career development to breaking out of a "system" QB mold.

I mean, Vick saw three wildcards in Philly and lost them all - not saying he failed by any extent, his development certainly made the team competitive. But within this context you're right, there's no reason to say Jackson can't develop into a dominant QB. However, until he does so outside of the RPO system, he will always be a system QB. There's also nothing wrong with that either, W's talk at the end of the day - but let's not ahead of ourselves here by calling a system QB anything yet, much less a Brady/Brees/Rodgers. While I personally think he is better than this, there is a solid argument that can be made that he is the RPO equivalent of a "game manager" QB. It's just that the RPO "game manager" asks for an exceptional amount of athleticism, acceleration, and decision-making. If he can play out his career under this one system, then absolutely he'll have found his niche and will be successful pending sustained roster talent and depth. But let's not crown Jackson independent of his roster, offensive scheme, OC, coaching staff, and defense just yet...let's give it more than a couple years, shall we?

Seriously, thank you. I love that Lamar is seeing success in the league. I love that he beat the Patriots. And he ensures for an entertaining afternoon of football week in and week out. You would not have seen this had Jackson gone to any other team, and especially not here in Buffalo. In reference to OP's point: Until he proves he can win outside of Roman's RPO system, the same system with an NFL edge that his draft evaluation said was the only system he could possibly translate to the NFL, he IS a system quarterback. Also, as mentioned, we've seen this before with Vick - it only took a few years before teams began to neutralize him in defensive scheme planning, and is only a matter of time before Roman's system can no longer rely on roster depth and talent with Ingram and the OL. This to say, there's nothing wrong with developing a system that perfectly matches to your QB's strengths and talents. But the success we're seeing now I'd attribute far more to the scheme than Jackson's inherent ability as a QB able to command in any offensive system. His entire passing game is predicated on the success of the RPO in Roman's system coupled with Ingram as a matched runner, and a stout OL. Today's defenses aren't exactly built with an RPO offense in mind either since the greater preference for pass heavy systems - but, few, including the Pats, haven't had to gameplan for such a scheme in such a way since Harbaugh/Roman/Kaep went to the SB under the same scheme and you see just how successful this is with Jackson's inherent skillset made for this system. Like Allen's critics are for him, I'm still waiting for the game where Jackson doesn't have the RPO, and needs to prove his strength as a passer to win a game. The few times he was asked to do that this season resulted in their only losses. We have a tendency, not just this board but as NFL fans including the media, to over-react/hype to a new QB seeing success in the league. None of this is to say that Jackson can't have 8 more seasons like this under Roman's guidance, but I don't know that the evidence is there yet to credit Jackson as that caliber of QB external of Roman's system. Until he can win without the RPO, he is, by definition, a system QB.

They just might drop one today, remains to be seen but this offense and defense has shown it's holes at times, even outside the Ravens game. It's been said a lot, but how NE finishes the season will say a lot about whether this is one of those Pats teams. If we can somehow pull one off against the Ravens that would be huge in any potential tiebreaker. In relation to the above, it's certainly optimistic but I could easily see this happening - so long as we play three teams worth of consistent football. Special teams was super special today, twice egregiously. Offense improved but they still need to set that minimum consistency of expectation in order to go 4-2 the rest of the way. I'd like to see us get a W against both the Broncos and Dallas, that momentum will be a helluva ride to finish it off with the Pats, Steelers, and Jets.

Preach - it's like a bowl of goldfish that lose their memory from week to week. In all fairness, I expected maybe 9-7 at best at the beginning of the season but had and still approach each week with a more 6-10 expectation. I don't think that will be our final record now by any means, but man has it been an enjoyable ride every week with that mindset. No one seems to be denying the obvious holes and issues, but they also seem to be entirely ignoring this critical context: Week 1 we returned three starters on offense: Josh Allen, Dion Dawkins, and Zay Jones (Foster notwithstanding). I'm sorry, but in your QB's second year, with an entirely new offense, how exactly was anyone expecting us to have the best starting record since 1993? It's fine to still be critical of a developing team in pointing out where they need to improve, but the underlying current has been one of progression and improvement if you focus on the overall trend and not week-to-week performances. it's like people not understanding that the weather and climate are two different things... That said, the Browns loss was just plain dirty - but it's all a work in progress given that context.

Yep - and then just beat the Steelers in Week 15. None of it's guaranteed obviously, but if we do what we should/need to and win four more games I don't see the issue.

Slightly tangential to your intention here, but the comparison to Lamar Jackson has all the same trappings of the constant lamenting over Mahomes and Goff, and how we should be able to expect an MVP by year two. If you look at those three young QBs that have all had substantial success in the league thus far on their rookie contracts, the only constant thread among them is an OC and scheme that perfectly matches their already established skillsets, physical strengths, and understanding of the game. In Jackson's case, I feel it was more Greg Roman finally found his Kaepernick 2.0 with a bit more to his repertoire, accompanied by a great roster and coaching staff but not surprising to see his previously successful scheme succeed again now. I still would like to see any one of these three QBs under a different OC/coach and scheme just to compare where the immediate impact and success stems from, but it seems to be a combination of the two from recent seasons. Jackson has proven he can pass, but his entire game is predicated on the success of the RPO in Roman's system opening the pass - we saw enough of it here to know. Goff benefits/ed from the no huddle, condensed 11/12/21 personnel packages and Gurley, where McVay could just leave his roster on the field, let Goff learn within those handful of packages, and stay on the helmet talk through most of the pre-snap reads. Mahomes' air raid thrives on the depth of roster talent and mismatches that Hill, Kelce, Watkins provide. He's inherently talented and simply completes the same scramble throws that Allen was criticized for making, Mahomes just completes them at a higher percentage. His edge is that he's able to read and make adjustments based on his experience in the system. All this to say, I doubt you see the same results with any one of them here or on most any other team. What this all says about Daboll and Allen I'm not sure - Allen's made marked improvements over last year, but he looks to be forcing his current game versus playing more naturally. I'm clearly no expert on what's better/best for Allen, nor do I feel Daboll's scheme is the entire reason for our offensive issues. We could benefit more from not under-utilizing Singletary and the run game against known poor run defense teams like the Browns and some situational playcalling, but his playcalling isn't the entire reason. But on some level we do seem to be lacking in the QB/OC combination realm that has seen Mahomes/Goff/Jackson success.

Great takes for sure - and I can certainly see the reason for the skepticism. I'm with you on most of this, but without making it sound like I'm trying to excuse the above, I think we still need to consider a few variables regarding our perspective of the above and Daboll. Generally, we were going to be, at best, an 8-8/7-9 team this year before our schedule became the cupcake that it is, and no one expected us to be truly SB/playoff competitive this year. A lot of that had to do with the fact that on opening day, we returned and started three offensive players: Allen, Dawkins, and Jones/Foster (McKenzie too, but not qualifying as "starter"). Not only does it take offenses more than a single offseason and eight real game weeks to begin to show form and pull together with an identity, Daboll comes from a coaching tree predicated on complex offensive looks and schemes. John Brown was the first to subtly mention it publicly, but we're running a very complex O that does get too cutesy at times for what the situation may call for, but provides us a great arsenal for attacking teams on a fundamental basis. As much as it's difficult to watch at times, I don't think this is something to be calling for dramatic change at this point - it certainly needs to improve, but I'd like to see us first have a consistently good offensive roster continue beyond just a single season before we coin our offense as overly complex and by result, inept. Tweaks certainly need to be made, but a lot of the reason why our offense can look different week to week is to limit how much opposition can scheme to us. Look what a power run offense under Greg Roman, a known pistol/power run guy, is doing with the right personnel in Baltimore - the Pats D hasn't seen anything like that, nor the NFL for that matter, since the early/mid 2000's. Mixing up offensive looks week to week very much helps us to open up the passing game, or run game with Motor, or rushes with Josh (if he could please learn ball security)...but all of these do help in a league that will take you to school once you start to get too rhythmic. All this to say, at this point what I'd rather see is Daboll simplifying the scheme and approaching things in the present. Looking instead at the current situation/offensive drive rather than setting up for a later drive with varied looks in hopes of giving us a better 4th quarter look. Not looking ahead to next year by any means, but for being 6-2 as a team that is truly not yet ready to compete on the perennial playoff level, I'm happy to see we're at least taking care of the games we absolutely should win, and to take this into next season with another year under the system and returning offensive players like we did for the Defense this year, it's honestly the most hopeful I've been for this team in 20 years. Daboll should at least have the rest of the season to show what the scheme can do and make necessary adjustments, but a new system for Allen at this point or next year could just as easily have a regressive impact than a progressive one.

Not sure if you have a subscription, but if interested: https://theathletic.com/1328440/2019/10/27/we-had-to-endure-that-ass-whupping-eagles-use-same-run-play-to-bludgeon-bills-defense/

Love the posts as always, Shaw! Inside zone left - it's all they ran. Hell, they ran it so often Tim Graham wrote The Athletic post game write-up about it, and included commentary from Eagles line players and our defense. Granted, it was run out of various formations, but it wasn't something that was being stopped and they were going to literally run with it until they couldn't. I feel like a good amount of this is actually in relation to your second point above, and that this was the first real OL we've faced all season long. It doesn't bode well for our Turkey Day date with the Cowboys, but after a couple weeks of weaker OL's and our DL's middling/average performances against them, this week almost spelled disaster for the DL. Beyond the known issues with Edmunds in his gap assignments and block shedding on run downs (which he has actually been overall better about this year than last), was that we do not currently have a starting 1T DT on our roster. Star has regressed to the point where he is losing even his one-on-one matchups, and cannot move laterally to assist in first contact plays on running downs. Not sure any of us expected big things from Peko, but he's been, as expected, a non-issue for opposing lines in Harry's absence. What we're seeing now is a combination of issues with that specific role on our DL, Edmunds having a rough time with gap and block shedding assignments as a result, and opposing team's recognition of our rotation strategy. They know we're missing Harry, and that we consistently rotate personnel to provide fresh legs on key downs, however Zo spent more of the first quarter on the sidelines than in-play once he rotated off and the Eagles kept him off the field. It's something Miami exposed last week with us and injuries, and the Eagles took it further this past week with selecting opposing personnel and hurry-up packages to match. It's hard - there's currently no internal remedy to the 1T DT role, and likely not one that can be readily found externally at this point until FA. Our run defense seems to go the way Edmunds plays in his gap assignment/block shedding roles, which is clearly impacted by the DL's ability to prevent/delay second level blocks at times. It's still something he did well with against the Giants and a few other weeks this season, but when he has games like the last two we do not have the DL personnel to compensate and assist until Harry is back next year, and hopefully performing at the same level. This leaves, more or less, schematic changes in how we approach the first quarter defensively to allow Edmunds what's needed for effective gap execution to set the tone for the game. For what it's worth, though, he wasn't the only one blowing gap assignments yesterday and getting eaten up by blocks.