ctk232

Can't say it enough. Vontae Davis should've never been signed and for that much money, too. This season was only ever going to be .500 at best - and with late offseason departures from our OL, that ceiling only lowered. We were just hopeful that the years of purgatory were over and that we would have other topics to discuss by this point in the season. It was never a chance for a repeat playoff push, but a setup for the future. It's all uncertain still, yet fully optimistic for where our two QBs are taking us, and how they will develop. But agreed, let's bring in some real young talent through next years draft, patch up holes with key FA signings and get this team going. All the teams people are whining about being good now had 4-5 top ten draft picks the past five years while we appeased our fanbase on the way to 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 mediocrity. This is the result you get from this strategy. The hilarity of this all being, I don't feel sorry for the cap space issues each of those teams will end up facing should they choose to retain all the talent that's currently helping them right the ship.

I don't care who you are or on what team, if you love the game you play (and get paid bank to do it), I would give it my everything. ESPECIALLY if I knew it was to be my last 30 minutes playing in the NFL. Unless he just goes to re-sign with another team after this, or attempt to, the move just honestly makes no sense from any perspective. It's the incredulity that is leading others to mock our team situation, citing internal foundation issues, yet there are so many other teams that I feel deserve a more critical eye for how their seasons have started. From a pure Vontae Davis perspective, the move really doesn't make sense at all on any level.

Plenty I'd rather not be: Zona, Giants, even Detroit has issues now with Stafford ailing and imho overpaid. I wouldn't trade any part of this team for Tampa right now in the midst of the Fitzy curse cycle. Currently watching my buddy go through the motions and it'll be a difficult let down. I like where the Bills are heading more so in the years to come than next year. Is it bad? Sure. Did we know it was coming? Very yes. Addendum - surprise pick? The Rams. Going through this cap hell from leftover Whaley doesn't make me jealous of LA's cap situation in the years to come with Donald, Goff, and Gurley and even the OL all likely commanding big time cap. Hell, wouldn't it be great to see Gurley in a Bills uniform following an aging Shady...wouldn't that pipedream be something

It's amazing what you can do when you inherit a talented roster and coughlin at the FO helm. McDermott did well to do his part in ending the drought, however, something Marrone wasn't able to do yet brought us the closest across prior regimes.

Yep. And thank you OP. Beane fully understood the situation he was inheriting, though there isn't much he could have done. He chose to rebuild a team rather then assemble something using what pieces he had at the time. And as OP's brief background noted, Whaley made a push to end a drought that left massive contract dumps for Beane to inherit and attempt some semblance of an NFL roster. No one, in the organization, fans included, thought the drought would end in their first year. And it wasn't until KB signing that we made an honest attempt as an organization beyond the player level. It was also a year with the greatest disparity between teams in the league, leaving the door to the playoffs much more wide open than many other seasons in the NFL. What we saw last year wasn't to plan, but certainly granted some great relief in getting the monkey off the back. Right now we've invested in a future 1-2 years down the line from seeing really coming together. We signed our future QBs in Allen and Edmunds - the latter of which is equally being left to the dogs in a way, yet handling his situation at his age very well. There are glaring holes at crucial foundation points that we all knew coming into the season would be difficult to bandaid. But if nothing else, we will be in better cap situation coming next year and the year after, potential for a high draft pick, and hopefully we capitalize on some high points now and salvage what season we can.

Start Teller for Ducasse, don't let Castillo back into the building, and draft OL in the first round...to start

1. All about deferring to Daboll. I'm growing tired of seeing DC's rise to HC levels and assume offensive authorities and decision making. To a degree, HC should be involved in most if not all personnel/roster decisions, but I would love to see McD defer more control of the offense to Daboll or someone who at least has grown on that side of the ball. To me, this would show tremendous leadership, and actually give us an idea of what our offensive future will look like. 2. Trading McCarron made most sense if the team was set on not keeping 3 QBs. Reason being, Beane wanted capital and we all knew Allen was making the roster. Leaving Peterman and McCarron, one of those would clearly demand more on the trading block, and doubly, save us more space against the cap. Given Nate's performance, he wouldn't eat up much cap space as QB2. 2a. Tangentially, I don't think McBeane thought Peterman honestly gave us the best chance at winning this year, or was the QB of the future. They saw a guy in the offseason and preseason who played as though he could get this team 4-6, maybe even 7 wins, but ultimately would land them a fairly high pick in next year's draft. I doubt it was ever their intention to make another playoff run this year given the dead cap and old af roster, and Peterman gave them the one year solution at a cheap price while they could let Allen develop and see time on field where they saw fit. After the dumpster fire of an opener, their plans were derailed and forced the hand to start Allen. Either way, let's hope Allen comes out of this season more confident than he entered it, and we go and get this kid some OL and WR help in the offseason.

Literally read my mind - said this on a few other threads, too, but for how much we knew of this going into the season with all the moves made this offseason and dead cap space, the reaction to our first game is a bit incongruous. Certainly deserves a critical eye, but the fact that anyone on this board though we might make another 8, 9, 10 game winning season and make the playoffs again is beyond understanding. The playoffs last year were not the intent, and it wasn't until they added KB that they really moved to "maybe give the playoff run a shot." Having ended the drought, they got an 18 year monkey off of the franchise's back, and could move forward with rebuilding a team for the future. This is a team poised to contend as intended more so in a year or two down the line. This season was never going to be the turnaround year - just don't think people expected the kind of loss we gave ourselves on Sunday.

Two things: 1. It's one game. Deplorable af game it was, but still just the first game. 2. Not calling out the OP, but do people here still honestly believe this is a playoff caliber team, or even an 8-8 plus team? How did any move this offseason not indicate that we were not looking to really compete this year? Dead cap, veteran and under-performing/over-paid player departures, etc. We spent two first round draft picks on our offensive QB and defensive QB, both of which show promise, but they were not immediate result picks intended to make all the difference this year. They were development picks for the next 2-3 years. I wanted to quote number 3 here because I think it's something that is being overlooked in our emotional reactions to Sunday, deserved as they may be. I personally have a real issue with "QB Competitions" in the offseason. While I understand the need to evaluate talent on the roster, rotating QBs through reps in training camp and well into the preseason doesn't allow our team to develop in two regards: the physical and mental realms. Physically, first team players do not have the chance to develop rhythm with the QB and coordinate timing, delivery, accuracy (something we definitely saw Sunday). It doesn't allow the OL, or lack thereof, to develop repetition with the starter for snap counts/cadence, pocket presence, or play style. Mentally, the team has no single offensive leader to put their faith in, and are otherwise put in a directionless environment until the staff decides on QB1. Regardless of the Captains on the team, the offense needs to be able to say, with certainty, who the guy is leading the offensive drives. While it's important to evaluate talent, you resign your team to uncertainty up until the week before the first game. And then you expect them to come out in mid-season form and plug in the pieces they've been missing for almost three months to this point? There's a reason the whole team looked unprepared on Sunday.

Couldn't agree more - while I've said that Allen currently gives us the best option to win of the two QBs on the roster, it doesn't mean that we should immediately commit to Allen as our starter in Week 2. We have some glaring holes that we knew about going into the season, and unfortunately our concerns were proven true on Sunday. If you don't have an OL to protect you or a WR corps that get open, you risk developing the wrong skill set in a QB. But it's rare you can sum a team up in three bullet points - at least the offensive side of the ball. But unless some significant changes occur beyond who starts under center each week, we'll see a lot of Allen getting hit, us wondering if this is it, and receivers having balls bounce off their hands. I hope Shady still has something left in the tank otherwise first overall pick here we go. This is the only component missing from the OP here. Beyond the state of our OL, there isn't much talent that's left to develop out of the players that are causing issues. Ducasse is not an NFL starter, imo ever, but especially not anymore. Neither is Newhouse, and Mills fills a spot. I'd rather see Teller get some time than witness what we saw on Sunday. But the core of the issue here is coaching. Castillo should never have been hired, and should've left as soon as Incognito and Woods retired. It was remarkable he wasn't lumped into the Dennison departure, outside of the personal ties to McD. There's much work to be done here, but how about we start with a coach who understands the actual positions involved.

Agreed with all but especially the above as it relates to this board's feelings today. Granted, no matter what your expectations were/are for this season, yesterday's loss has no excuse. But the more I read, the more it seems people actually went through the entire offseason and believe that we would contend for the same result as last year. Not necessarily a playoff/wildcard berth, but to even be close to an 8-8/9-7 result. We were all thrilled the drought was ended with our first season under the new regime, but it is abundantly clear this is a team being built for the future, and not to win now. It's hard to argue how any move made in the offseason would lead us to compete this year, first. Your 12 month assessment might be too tight to see the real dividends Beane intended for with his moves this offseason, but I do hope that we start to see results to be confident in that intended future, during that period.

So you do know this isn't racist, right?

To be honest, I think our OL has made this conversation moot - but while KB can be a deep threat, our overall WR corps doesn't really give secondaries much to worry about. When a defense can provide safety help for one guy (KB) for an entire game because no one else demands the coverage threats, exactly how is he supposed to contest throws? I agree, he's ideally fitted for the jump ball at 30-40 yds and has proven to be that guy at times. But how many throws can you expect to be made into double coverage 30-40 yds out when the OL gives us two seconds to throw? You need the 30 yd throw to keep a defense honest and out of the box to expand the run - but the Pats have been winning games the last two seasons with a shorter passing game. You'll see the deep ball when we have more than one WR threat in the corps, and an actual OL to allow deep ball plays to develop. For now we have to work with what we have, and hopefully use more of our TE's moving forward.

Play him this year, or next, like I said, I believe he gives us the better chance to win of the two QBs on the roster. But what can you really expect him to learn and recognize as routine in this league when our OL is playing at a point that it doesn't exactly matter who we start? All for letting him get his feet wet this year, but right now you still have to consider the environment he'd be learning within. But hey, if we want a Russell Wilson/Brett Favre play style of throwing on the run most every play, then just cut him loose. It'll be nothing if not more entertaining than the alternative.

Well we don't have receivers that can really get open period, a la yesterday. But to keep this in relation to when it was posted, is KB able to stretch the Defense? Absolutely he can. Is that the type of receiver he is? Not really. Any receiver can get behind the defense, that's not the point here. KB's exceptions lie with size and hands, not so much route running or speed. He can get behind defenders, but he isn't a constant deep threat you need to constantly honor or plan for schematically. It's not so much speed as it is equally route running as well. I hope Zay can be that guy, but right now he seems better suited for the slot role. I also fail to see how saying we have Zay constitutes any kind of confidence - I think this guy could be a great addition long term, but he isn't anyone that can be used in an argument saying we have deep ball weapons, much less a solid WR corps. The real issue though, coupled with the lack of open receivers (which we've seen the past two seasons), is our OL. We can wait for the All 22 to see how many plays actually lined up where both instances occurred, but what can a QB do when the OL has glaring issues, and his receivers don't create enough separation?

Start Peterman the rest of the season, this is not a team I would want Allen developing behind. I can't imagine he will develop strong habits and NFL skills by playing behind this OL, and with this group of WRs who provide no opportunity for rhythm throws, tempo drives, or just giving him any options to move the ball. Can't see a franchise QB coming out of that dumpster fire. That being said, I honestly think we stand a better chance of winning with Allen in the game as teams haven't really planned for him. But Peterman wasn't even given a chance - we all know what happened with the OL, but to compound the issue, no receivers were creating separation in their routes and creating windows for anyone to throw. When they did, the turnstile of an OL gave Peterman 2 seconds to read and release before feeling pressure. There was one point, I need to go look at the tape because it was all such a blur time wise, but it was 3rd and 4 and we were facing a four man rush. We literally outnumbered the amount of pass rushers sent during the entire play with no added spy or rush support, and another drive ended before it even began. I honestly couldn't care less who McD starts in the end, but I'd prefer keeping Allen off the field as much as possible until we fix our line play on both sides of the ball. Until we do, we won't have much to cheer for each weekend. Every team build should begin with the trenches (imho), sure you need skill players to score, but this is what happens when you neglect key foundations to each side of the ball.

Agree with your post 100%, Ducasse should not be a starter in this league anymore. He was solid at one point, but he should not be a starting lineman in this NFL. Newhouse is no better. But Castillo is someone we really should have cut ties with over the offseason. I know he has ties to McDermott through Reid, but even a defensive minded coach like McDermott has to see that Castillo needs to have been shown the door as early as last year. He remained on the roster for those personal reasons, and hiding behind a line with Incognito and Wood. While I don't think Incognito should be in the NFL anymore, you can see a noticeable difference what happens when we lose two linchpins of our OL and don't really address the holes in the offseason. I wanted to keep this as factual as possible, but I just can't see us even being considered an NFL caliber team until Castillo is let go, and we revamp our lines.

While I agree his arm strength is a big question mark, and has been since he was drafted - two other variables you should consider before questioning his deep ball: 1) playcall - unless he's Peyton Manning, I don't see him checking down the coverage and calling hot routes on the fly, he'll execute the play as called, and 2) do we really have any deep threats in our WR corps for him to throw to? KB has size and hands, but he isn't exactly a threat to get behind the safeties and keep them honest. We have a few speedy WRs, but none that can really demand the attention and concern of the secondary. It's also pretty easy to cover against when we send the same two people deep every time they're on the field and don't mix them into other routes. It's not exactly a formula for success, but my guess is that you'll see plenty of passes within the 10-15 yd range and some in the 20-30. Before we say that it's only a matter of time before safeties start cracking down on this, just remember that Brady built the second half of his career on the short pass. Peterman is no Brady, but Daboll spent some time in that offense and certainly picked up that trend. There are other ways to mix up playcalling to rely on the short pass game (i.e. screens, misdirections, running game, play action, or RPO, though I doubt they'll have Peterman run the latter).

Don't think that it's any surprise we don't have an exceptional OL. You also can't really base any team, or overall line play on preseason performance, however, you can more accurately gauge individual performance in the preseason. The reason for this is that, up until they declared Peterman QB1, no offensive line player was able to acclimate to any particular QB cadence, pocket presence/movement, time to release, or even play style at all. To further complicate the continuity issues, we didn't even have a starting line set until roughly around the same time. I don't think it takes an expert to tell you that each OL player develops their style based upon the scheme and the guys next to them. Don't get me wrong, our OL is one of the biggest holes on this team imho. But you can't let what you've seen thus far be the end all be all for the remainder of the season, and consider the perspective that it's still just the preseason, and sadly, our coaches spent camp and the first four games answering questions and experimenting rather than developing a solid foundation of continuity to build from. While it can be argued they had no choice with Allen as a first round pick and the current state of the team, that is the result you are seeing on the field more so than the saying our OL is only comprised of terrible players.

I really think that's what you'll see the most. Our OL won't be able to keep our offense on the field long enough to make a difference the way they're currently playing. The pertinent issues on our defense however, are stopping the run and DB2. We watched Davis get torched in man coverage by flankers and WR2, which is what he would mostly be covering in those schemes as DB2. Fine with him in zone for the most part, but we have a fairly concerning hole in our secondary. Our D-Line will continue to suffer until HP develops - we'll miss Kyle for sure which likely contributes to this ranking as well, but anticipating him leaving after the season, we don't have anyone to stop the run outside of HP and Star... With a young LB corps, expect to see teams carve out some decent run gashes. My way too early prediction? The rankings are accurate until the players play, and they aren't. ADDENDUM: As far as offensive rankings with the OL, I mentioned in another thread the issue of continuity and QB competitions, so hopefully that is the case and now they can start getting a rhythm together. Otherwise they're just talking the talk: With a clear sense of direction, the team is excited to start moving forward with Peterman. "Now you have an opportunity for guys to work together, some continuity and time to prepare," said Kyle Williams. "Knowing how we're going into the game with no questions. No distractions. It feels good," added Groy. "It makes the offensive line more comfortable because we know where to set in the pocket and where [Nathan] will be because every quarterback is different," said Dion Dawkins. -from the Rochester First article posted on the news board

This is every indication of how the season will likely go, especially without either trench worth anything. I feel like teams that have "QB controversies" or "position battles" never really pan out during the subsequent season. There's no consistency, routine, or practice to build from to carry into the season, and the indecision shows. That being said, I don't know how you can choose a set of starters from what we currently have on either side of the ball, especially the OL. But without a consistent and set OL roster, what does the offense have to rely on? Also doesn't help that we don't have a QB1 yet, so no OL or even offensive players will be able to fully practice and learn each QB's cadence, play style, throws, etc. But hey, the obvious answer to this is that they are professionals, right?

No injuries, Croom, Murphy - though adding Murphy to this list is really redundant given his consistent performance. Just that he hasn't gotten hurt is a big deal going into the season

It's hard to gauge priority with positional need, but only reason I'd give slight preference to the OL here would be the physical number of holes needed to fill, versus a single DB spot that we may have young talent for on the roster. Either way, this year it'll hurt. And I've been thinking about Allen's velocity of throws and I think this is where his finesse needs to be developed. Every receiver knows the coach's adage "if a ball hit them in the hands that it should have been caught." I tend to agree with this about 98% of the time.Objectively speaking though, crazy arm strength is nothing without control and accuracy - we've seen that play out numerous times across the league. One of the foundations of Allen's style of play is his velocity, allowing him to make those window throws to receivers and extend drives, or even score, on plays that would typically send them off the field. With our current WR corps having perennial difficulty getting open and running routes, window throws are about all our QBs see on a constant basis since TT took over. All in all, though, I agree. Hopefully he develops this finesse with time, as it is yet another trait that separates the upper echelon of QBs in the league.

Agree with Mango, too - easily the largest concern right now is our lines. We have pieces, but no where near a full line on either side of the ball and it is going to show this year. Solid to great lines make the rest of the offense and defense look better, as they allow them the time needed to do their jobs. Was yesterday a mixed bag of the rookie holding on to the ball too long occasionally, and lack of responsive play calling from the OC because its the preseason and that's not how games will be called? Sure. But the OL did little except provide Murphy with some sizeable alleys to run. It's not much better on the other side of the ball at the moment with Kyle out. HP will is promising, but you saw what can happen to our secondary when no one gets to the QB. Lastly, the dark horse positions of concern? DBs... I love Tre, and he's demonstrated qualities and skills to be a top corner in the league. He's much further than most sophomore DBs, but he's still young and makes mistakes. More concerning though is our DB 2 specifically, bless his heart. He was a great talent, but it's going to be difficult to ask him to perform 5 years younger in man coverage against speedy flankers. I'd rather use him in our zone coverage schemes, but honestly, I feel like this is a big hole that teams will exploit if we don't personnel around him properly. One upside? Can we start Croom at TE already, or at least two-set him in a lot? I think we really have something there. Especially in the red zone with KB on the other side - i'd take both in a jump ball. Should also add I hope Teller pans out at Guard, that would be a huge help to an otherwise turnstile of a line.

I don't really want our OL starting week 1, is there an option for that? Honestly, no, the kid needed this to see pro ball and has stayed within himself for what he's seen so far. Last night was his first look at what the NFL can be like when your OL is a saloon door. But I'd rather see what Peterman has learned and how he's grown since last year before putting all my eggs on the rookie, while he still has a good amount of refinement to progress through