Rocky Landing

50 years? Except for that pesky stretch from '71 to '95 where they won the division twice.

No offense, WEO, but I'm not going to get drawn into one of your endless back-and-forths. Go play with Doc.

Just for the sake of the experiment, I put Duke, or Kumerow as the #3WR only because they were the only ones other than the presumptive starters, Davis, and McK who have had meaningful snaps in a Bills uniform. I actually doubt either will make the team come Sept. And your post is a misrepresentation of what I have suggested.

And apparently, even though Tua threw for fewer yards, and fewer TDs, on a better team in '20 than Trubisky, Tua is average.

Allen followed by Tua? In what universe? Again, how would Tua be considered a better QB than Trubisky? By what metric? By what "eye test?" Tua was straight-up terrible last season. And, it's not like there wasn't another known-commodity QB to compare him to. Ryan Fitzpatrick, as flawed a QB as he is, was head, shoulders, and chest better than Tua in every aspect of the game, statistically, objectively, subjectively and by any "eye test" you might want to consider, with the exact same personnel. To be clear, I would consider Fitz to be a better QB than Trubisky, But, not nearly as much better as he was vs. Tua. It's not even close. Maybe Tua pulls it together in '21. But, right now, to consider Tua better than Trubisky is lunacy, even for a Dolphins fan. And, as far as Trubisky being a "loser," I will, once again, remind you that as a professional QB, he has a winning record, including in his last three (out of four) seasons, in the NFL.

Yes, I am comparing Trubisky to a QB who's shoulder is shot, and a rookie who had a lousy season, because that is who the other quarterbacks in the division are. And, you're going to accuse me of cherry picking data, and then throw out the only stat you could find to support an argument that you basically concede in the very next sentence? I'm sorry, but that a bizarre response. And, yeah, I will reiterate my "cherry picked stats," or as I would rather refer to them: "all of the AFCE QB's stats from the 2020 season." Trubisky threw for 2055 yards, 16/8 : TD/Int in 10 games. Cam threw for 2657 yards, 8/10 TD/Int in 15 games. Tua threw for 1814 yards, 11/5 : TD/Int in 10 games. You do the math. Even you know Trubisky is better than Cam, and you have admitted as much. But, you're going to use your "eye test" to argue that Tua is better at... reading defenses??? Did you watch Tua play last season? Please name an aspect of the game in which Tua Tagovailoa is a better quarterback.

Don't forget everyone's favorite "dark horse" candidate! Do I even need to state his name???

Yeah, people love to say that. BUT... just on 2020 stats alone: Tua: 64.1 comp%, 11 TDs, 5 Ints, 87.1 QBR Cam: 65.8 comp%, 8 TDs, 10 Ints, 82.9 QBR Mitch: 67.0 comp.%, 16 TDs, 8 Ints, 93.5 QBR (And a winning record for the season, btw.) If you can come up with a coherent argument for how Trubisky is not the second best QB in the division, let's hear it.

I couldn't find the stats for 2020, but in the '18, and '19 seasons, he had the third lowest checkdown rate in the league, after Mahome (2nd), and Allen (1st).

Gabriel Davis just had a 599 yard rookie season, as a #3-#4 wide receiver, with all of the obstacles that every other rookie had last season-- no OTAs, limited TC, no preseason. I would take him over any WR the Patriots* currently have. And, for that matter, Mitch Trubisky is currently the second best QB in the AFCE, and that is a hard point to argue.

I think there are quite a few positions where "starter" is more or less a technicality. Singletary, or Breida could be named the starting RB, but Moss will likely get more snaps. Jackson, and Wallace will both get plenty of playing time. Knox, and Hollister should be complimentary. The D-line, especially, will likely have a rotation that will make opposing DC's heads spin. P/KR will be a pretty good competition to watch, and may ultimately affect who makes depth at WR. I voted "other" for the D-line competitions, DT, and DE. There's so much potential there, but a lot of question marks, as well. Can't wait to see some of these guys in action. But is Christian Wade comes out and starts competing for P/KR, or looks like he has a real shot at RB, I'll change my vote.

I'm pretty much agreeing with all the flame I'm receiving for this thread. I do think it's an interesting discussion, and I also think the Second String Team I posted above is better than many are giving credit for, but maybe not by much. All that being said-- you really can't accuse Trubisky of being check down-prone. He simply isn't.

You're welcome. https://www.ebay.com/itm/234058204300?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001

Coincidentally, I just rewatched the Indy game last night on GamePass, and I noticed them playing a lot more 4-3 than I had remembered. Klein had a big role in that game. But, I think you're right-- once Klein really started to contribute, I think they started swapping him out with Taron J. a lot more. Taron was obviously a lot faster, and could bullet past the LOS, and was clearly better in coverage-- I think even against TEs. But Klein really started to become the "run-stuffer" that he had been sold as. For the record, I spent much of the season wishing they would play more 4-3, as I wasn't really sold on Taron Johnson. But, in retrospect, and as the year wore on, he really had one helluva season. But, when Edmunds, and/or Milano weren't 100%, he really needed a lot more help than he got. When the Bills played 4-2-5, they really needed those "2" to be spot on for the scheme to be effective.

"Cornerstones" like Stevie Johnson, or CJ Spiller, or, IDK, Scott Chandler? Is it such a crazy premise to say that the current 2021 Bills second string is as good, or maybe even better than the 2013, 6-10 Bills led by... EJ Manuel? In a division facing Brady*, and Tannehill, and a Rex Ryan led Jets with Geno Smith that went 8-8? In the '21 season, the Bills will face three teams in their division that are ALL in the midst of a rebuild, and, for a couple, no small amount of denial. The Dolphins will be a solid(ish) team led by a QB who played 2020 scared. The Pats* defense will be fierce, and their offense will be anemic. The Jets will likely be trash. In the '21 AFCE division, the Bills second string O-line would be average, the RBs would be average, the defense would be average, Hollister would be average, but Davis would be top tier, the rest of the WRs would be solid, and Trubisky would clearly be the best QB. Again, as I posited in my OP, probably not favored to win the division, but certainly contenders. And, certainly NOT a two win team, as @Bangarang suggested. 6-8 wins in a 17 game season, and possibly better.

I'm looking at current starters vs. backups. Most pundits are giving Ford the upper edge to start at LG. Feel free to replace Boettger with Ford as a backup-- I won't be heartbroken. Lamp has not yet earned a starting spot, and Feliciano has been our backup center for the last two seasons.

Disagree. If Spencer Brown turns out to be serviceable, that would be a middling O-line. Then there is a mediocre (at worst) RB, decent TE, competent WR corp (Davis, and McK make plays). And, not a terrible defense. If Rousseau pans out, that's a solid D-line. And also-- Mitch Trubisky would be the best QB in the division.

Close. It's Jake Kumerow. You got Cole right. Wrong on Shady.

Hail Murray?

It isn't, and he didn't. But, it was a good guess.

Personally, I'm looking at long-term success. I want the Bills to be dominant in the AFC for a long time, and I want the Bills to be looked at as perennial contenders. So, for Q#2, I voted a minority that considers winning the AFCE to be a successful season. Of course, not going deep into the playoffs, or making it to the SB would be disappointing. But, I want the Bills to be respected in the league. I want the Bills to be a team that other teams, and media outlets talk about. A team that wins every year. If you go to NFL.com/new right now, and you go back weeks, it's hard to find an article about the Bills. They're still an afterthought. That should change.

There was a game, midseason (I can't remember which game it was-- maybe you do) where it looked like Klein just flipped a switch to a much higher level, and he sustained it for the rest of the season. I wish I could remember which game it was.

To be fair, though, Mitch Trubisky had the third lowest check down rate from '18-'19 (I can't find the check down stats for '20). He ain't no Trent Edwards! (Allen had the lowest check down rate, btw.)

I was thinking the same thing, at first, but then I remembered how well Siran Neal plays nickel. I thought about moving him to safety, also (where he was drafted, iirc). But, as he is listed as CB, I thought I'd keep him there. I also think LB is one of our thinnest positions, after Klein.