ExiledInIllinois
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Posts posted by ExiledInIllinois
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They are not pointing fingers... I wonder why?
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People died.
A little late? After somebody slipped on the floor... Got hurt or died.
It is a question of service.
I used the cavalry response earlier. Ya, they got their but...
Again... Not that they were not trying hard. They were.
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Not that it is related, just thought it would be fun to ask a riddle about Louisiana. It is not an attempt to justify things one way or another. The riddle I pose is just an attempt to see how different some are. It actually doesn't make that much of a difference... But, culturally?
Here goes BatBoyz and BatGirlz:
What do the other 49 states in the Union do that is not common in Louisiana?
I even gave you a clue!
All you Franco-bashers and Francophobes can chime in if you want.
??????????
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Same here Tom... I have a "Purple Heart's" bag just waiting.
I repeat Eryn's sentiment... Don't take offense at my jabs.
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But he is an establishment sympathizer and apologist... One awfully rich one I have to say.
Wow, that is so AWESOME CTM that you were able to do that.
I can only wish to give that much... I probably could but, I too would be out of a house.
Thanks!
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Another analogy:
At my work we have all kinds of responsibilites. Each shift has something to do from running the place to cleaning the place. We all know our responsibilites and what our job is.
So knowing this... If it is midnight's job to get the place in order and clean up after the two other shifts, that is YOUR JOB.
So... If afternoons and days leaves the place one effing discourteous mess and I am on midnights... Do I clean it up?
The answer is a resounding YES!
It is still my job, maybe not my mess but, still my job!
Now, the proper response would have been to clean it up the best and greatest way you know how every single time! If you have a problem where you think that the other shifts didn't work well. You bring it up with management after you complete your job.
And, yes... I AM A union worker.
Find that hard to believe?
Should I just accept the whoooosh going right over your heads and accept the pat on your back work done not to the best of your ability?
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I too have the kids running around like some "stirring pot!"
My daughter is Lily... I say to my wife: Like Lily (Willie) Loman, "Attention must be paid!" (ie: Death Of A Salesman ~ A. Miller)
Watch out you are being brought to the middle...
Tell you what... Bring me down to the hurricane states and in my whacky methodology I have the whole zone riding the motha out high and dry.
Okay... This is a line of sh--, no need to tell me!
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As much as it seems I am against people here, I am for all purposes pretty onboard with your reasoning.
Read Dan's article on how there were other immediate proposals... Stop gap measure that could be done before the Corps finished.
Why was the Corps against some of those plans.
Why?
What people don't realize is the power they have... The past prestige they wield.
I know doubt think that they were the "monkey wrench" in the machine.
That is why I blame the feds at the top of the chain.
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Funniest thing I heard Nagin say was something like "I don't know if it's the governor or the President, but someone has to take control and get things in order down here." In other words, "I don't know whose fault it is, but it's not mine."
The guy is scum. He makes Buffalo's leaders look good.
True. Local capabilites broke down and they became overwhelmed. Were was the calvary? The Federal Reponse Plan (FRP) addresses this. It DOESN'T question the state and local plans.
Not say that their plan sucked... It did.
Still where was the calvary?
We know where most of the La. National Guard was. That falls under they state, they to became quickly overwhelmed and their capablitites broke down.
Again where was the calvary?
Any football team has a plan for an emergency punter or QB's.
I would be totally with the fedaral apologists here if things went smoothly with the FRP.
It didn't. sh-- rolls up hill in this case.
The whole "ARMY" was comprimised because the cav was watering their horses?
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I know absolutely nothing about law enforcement, but are you suggesting that all the cops didn't know what to do? Are you suggesting that as the storm was approaching, no one reviewed with them what to do in a worst case scenario? Are you suggesting that there was no plan on the local level? None at all? All the officers had no idea what to do because there was no communication from their superiors? No one said "If the schitt hits the fan, and we lose all communications, then go here or here or here?"
Gee, you'd have thought the moment someone said "EVERYONE EVACUATE NEW ORLEANS!" that maybe the chief of police would start a plan of action for the aftermath. Who knew they all heard the evac call and said "Okay. Gotta go."
Man, Bush screwed this up.
You mine as well put me on ignore because you won't be able to reply adequately.
Everybody screwed up... Bush did not screw up the local response, he screwed up the federal response. FEMA is federal? You can chase that chain up to the prez?
Okay, the local response was FUBAR... You are right. Does it end there? NOOOOOOOO because this kicks in:
I asked this in an earlier thread:
"Although emergency prepardness and response is primarily a state and local responsibility, IN INSTANCES WHEN THE NATURE OF THE DISASTER EXCEEDS THE CAPABILITIES OF STATE AND LOCAL INTERESTS, the Corps of Engineers stands ready to HELP SAVE HUMAN LIFE, PREVENT IMMEDIATE HUMAN SUFFERING, and mitigate property damage."
What part of IMMEDIATE don't you understand?
What part of IN INSTANCES WHEN THE NATURE OF THE DISASTER EXCEEDS THE CAPABILITIES OF STATE AND LOCAL INTERESTS don't you understand?
Is IMMEDIATE kinda like defining the word IS.
Is IN INSTANCES WHEN THE NATURE OF THE DISASTER EXCEEDS THE CAPABILITIES OF STATE AND LOCAL INTERESTS kinda like defining what is is?
Gee, this is like "shooting fish in a barrel"... I should really leave this place for awhile.
I am such a pain in the azz, I know!
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I am going to start a new post because the previous ones are cluttered with italicized quotes.
The local wall or Community Haven idea is negatively dismissed by the Corps. This shows the Corps oppostion to anything but their own agenda. The Corps for years has been seen as a rogue agency stuck on itself.
How dare someone come up with another idea! And it is land based to boot.
What striking is it is so Longitudesque. If you don't know what I am talking about... Sometime ago I made reference to the novel:
The book is about the race to solve the longitude problem.
The thorniest scientific problem of the eighteenth century was how to determine longitude. Many thousands of lives had been lost at sea over the centuries due to the inability to determine an east-west position. This is the engrossing story of the clockmaker, John "Longitude" Harrison, who solved the problem that Newton and Galileo had failed to conquer, yet claimed only half the promised rich reward.
The scientific establishment had the ear of the king, the power and prestige. They weren't gonna be out done by a "mechanic", a simple clock maker in their centuries time consuming quest to map all the heavens.
British ships were getting lost routinely because of this problem. They didn't have hundreds of years sitting in the southern hemisphere mapping the skys. A solution was needed QUICKLY.
To get back to the point... The Corps reminds me of that science establishment during that day.
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Finally disected it and here are my comments.
Again this article was done in June 2003. The work the Corps was working on was stopped in June 2004 because the NO District was massively cut by 71.5 million dollars. At that time Al Naomi was quoted attacking those cuts.
In 1999 the Corps was authorized by Congress to study the feasibility of various proposals for protecting the city against such devastating storms. An obvious possibility would be to raise the current levees to a height deemed acceptable by an AdCirc analysis. That, however, would also require widening the levees, which may not be possible in many areas because of the proximity of homes. Among other alternatives, Naomi will investigate the possibility of creating an immense wall between Lake Pontchartrain and the gulf to keep water out of the lake during a severe storm. Such a project would involve constructing massive floodgates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes, where storm surge would enter the lake.
According to Naomi, any concerted effort to protect the city from a storm of category 4 or 5 will probably take 30 years to complete. And the feasibility study alone for such an effort will cost as much as $8 million. Even though Congress has authorized the feasibility study, funding has not yet been appropriated. When funds are made available, the study will take about six years to complete. “That’s a lot of time to get the study before Congress,” Naomi admits. “Hopefully we won’t have a major storm before then.”
I don't understand where this whole 2006 and it resuming thing got started?
Hey, if they were working on it and studying it when Katrina hit, fine. They were not. The project was mothballed.
This was a race... A 30 year race that ended quickly and all too early with Katrina.
I can live with that. I can't live with the stoppages.
There should have been a concerted effort to make do with what they had, making sure that the system in place was very well maintained.
The quick-fix local response was opposed by the Corps:
That prospect—and the amount of time it would take the Corps to construct adequate levee protection against a storm of category 4—have inspired Suhayda to push for what he calls a community haven project. His idea is for the city to construct a 30 ft (9 m) tall wall equipped with floodgates through the center of town to protect the heart of New Orleans and such culturally important areas as the French Quarter. That portion of the city lies between two bends in the Mississippi River and is therefore already protected by adequate levees on three sides. With its gates closed, the wall would complete a waterproof ring around the area.
Suhayda says the wall would be cheaper and faster to build than the larger projects under consideration by the Corps. It could be constructed along an existing right-of-way and act as a sound wall most of time. “We’re going to build sound barriers along most of these roads anyway,” Suhayda says. “So for a small added cost, go ahead and make them capable of withstanding wind loads and hydrostatic heads.”
The Corps would not necessarily be involved in the construction of such a wall because the latter would be land based. Even so, Naomi is adamantly opposed to the idea. “How do you protect people from two-hundred-mile-per-hour winds?” he asks. “Where do they go? What buildings are designed to withstand that? Where do they get their power and their food, and where do they rest their heads at night? Just keeping the water out isn’t enough. You don’t want to give people a false sense of security by saying that this is a refuge unless you have a place for them to go.”
Sure seems like keeping the water out from Katrina would have been enough? Why not include the SuperDome and Convention Center in this plan? I think they sit between the bends in the river? The people went there anyway?
Seems like we got competing interests here?
It is no doubt that the power of the Corps would win out, they are the engineering establishment. In Katrina, it would have been better than nothing?
Coast 2050 seemed promising... Wonder if the Corps was backing it, never said?
But the Coast 2050 Plan currently has widespread support among environmentalists, the oil and gas industry, and hurricane protection specialists.
People such as Windell Curole consider it the last, best chance to save southeastern Louisiana. Curole (pronounced “cure-all”) is the general manager of the South Lafourche levee district, which maintains hurricane protection levees around Bayou Lafourche, a rural area west of New Orleans and the place where he was raised. Decades ago Curole’s grandfather paddled through the wetlands there in a hollowed-out cypress tree collecting oysters. Today much of the same area is completely submerged in salt water.
On a recent sunny morning, Curole visited a freshwater diversion project near New Orleans called Davis Pond, one of only two such diversions from the Mississippi River. The project involves a canal west of the city that releases about 1,000 cfs (28 m3/s) of freshwater from the top of the river into a 9,300 acre (3,700 ha) pond that eventually feeds into Lake Cataouatche. By filling the marsh with freshwater, the idea is to decrease its salinity while feeding it valuable nutrients, in this way mimicking the marsh environment that would have existed before the sides of the Mississippi were dammed.
First authorized by Congress in the late 1960s, Davis Pond was completed by the Corps in March 2002. In the 1960s it was seen as a fairly aggressive step toward addressing the issue of coastal erosion. Today, in Curole’s words, it is seen more as a “Band-Aid.” The project—which does not divert sediment into the marsh in any measurable quantity—is meant to alleviate a total of about 1 sq mi (2.6 km2) of land loss. By most estimates, coastal Louisiana is losing as much as 35 sq mi (90.6 km2) of land per year to subsidence. Despite this grim reality, Curole refuses to see anything in Davis Pond except signs of hope. “It’s a little leak for the river,” he says, looking over the water, “but a giant leak for mankind.”
This is Curole’s first trip to Davis Pond, a place that he and other supporters of the Coast 2050 Plan hope will be viewed as a sort of pilot project for future diversion efforts. Traveling by airboat over thick, floating marshes and rounded levees, he enthusiastically points at countless alligators, scurrying nutrias, and several bald eagle nests. He snaps pictures of waterfowl as if he has never seen them before, or, more likely, as if he might never see them again.
The boat stops at the end of the pond near a rock weir separating it from Lake Cataouatche, the New Orleans skyline in the distance. “It’s just so nice to see the growth here, the green growth,” Curole says. Smiling large, eternally optimistic, he continues: “If we run this thing harder, up to six thousand cfs, or even more, I think we’ll start seeing white shrimp up in here again. That is a major hurdle. If we can start running this at six thousand cfs, who knows what we can do.”
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Long article on New Orleans and hurricane threats, particularly Category 4 and 5. My best shot at key quotes:
" The design of the original levees, which dates to the 1960s, was based on rudimentary storm modeling that, it is now realized, might underestimate the threat of a potential hurricane. Even if the modeling was adequate, however, the levees were designed to withstand only forces associated with a fast-moving hurricane that, according to the National Weather Service’s Saffir-Simpson scale, would be placed in category 3. If a lingering category 3 storm—or a stronger storm, say, category 4 or 5—were to hit the city, much of New Orleans could find itself under more than 20 ft (6 m) of water.
Some experts worry that even a less severe storm could flood the city. In the 40 years since the design criteria were established for New Orleans’s hurricane protection levees, southeastern Louisiana’s coastline has been subsiding—settling in on top of itself—even as the natural height of the sea rises. A century ago any hurricane heading toward New Orleans would have had to traverse a 50 mi (80 km) buffer of marshland. Today that marsh area is only half as broad and the hurricane would be striking a city that itself sinks lower every day."
Hurricane Betsy was used as the benchmark for improving the levee system, and their "modeling" was a rudimentary application of Newton's 2nd law.
"According to [ACE Levee project manager Al] Naomi, any concerted effort to protect the city from a storm of category 4 or 5 will probably take 30 years to complete. And the feasibility study alone for such an effort will cost as much as $8 million. Even though Congress has authorized the feasibility study, funding has not yet been appropriated. When funds are made available, the study will take about six years to complete. 'That’s a lot of time to get the study before Congress,' Naomi admits. 'Hopefully we won’t have a major storm before then.'"
Estimates from a variety of sources (Red Cross and others) indicate that Cat 4/5 hurricane hitting New Orleans would strand up to 400,000 people (including the 100,000 without transport), and kill 25,000-100,000.
A lot in there about other ways to protect the city (including an "interior wall" concept and saving the nearby wetlands (the Coast 2050 plan).
EII...your thoughts?
Interesting Dan... June 2003.
I fear that Katrina, being a 4 will cloud or scapegoat the issue. The storm passed to the east by about 40 miles and NOLA made it out of the storm... But, not long enough!
The best word is "Band-Aid."
The constant encroachment on the north marshland is a problem... They will tax for levee improvements before education...
To sit there all these years while they keep sticking a "Band-Aid" on it is troubling.
This is a classic example of the hound not getting the fox because he was to busy taking a sh--.
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As you can see I am consumed by this event...
As much as I blame the federal gov't... All others share in the blame.
The feds were the people truly in the know... Supposedly the experts... Somehow I feel they minimalized the importance of what they were doing.
This is what happens when you don't get a second opinion... And put all your eggs in one basket.
I agree the primary federal agency in charge can put together a pretty impressive package on paper... In the field it is a whole other story.
I am not sure who you go to iron out our aging infrastucture?
We will continue to be pulled ecomonically and enviromentally... Each with a radically different concept of things.
Can the two ever be married?
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I see it all the time... People who forget to put the plug in their boat... My advice:
"Run it really fast in a cricle... That will get the water out!"
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No idea on any of that. I'm an engineer too and I know all about designing with plenty of room for error and a focus on redundancy.
They knew that these levees failing would basically destroy a major U.S. city so why were they designed with only Cat 3 in mind? If we're talking about hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives, why not design it for some sort of fictional Cat 6 storm?
A disaster like this takes an old bad design and decades of neglect to happen.
Then you take into account how poor the city's plan was for this event, which is another story....
We may have the perfect storm of stupidity and neglect here.
Hey we agree!
Cool.
Where we disagree is that the Corps should have manned up to all this years ago and should have done the right thing in the absence of any sane reasoning.
Seems everybody kept saying it is not my job.
No matter how jaded I am or how troubled I am by someone else's lack of initative never things slide!
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You've got to have somewhere to put it, some way of supporting it, and something to do with it.
Same thing with the tsunami...people were complaining that the US didn't offer billions in aid immediately. Well...the fact is, billions would have just sat there doing nothing. Anything most anyone sends right now to New Orleans is likely to do just about the same. Putting more of something into a situation like this is not always good...after a point, you can put so much resources into it so quickly that the size of effort paralyzes itself.
Kinda like when they say "no flowers please" at a funeral?
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Ben Stein made an interesting point. If our media put as much effort into raising poeple's spirits as they did into trying to make everything seem as awful as possible, we'd all be a lot better off.
Sadly, it's important to them that everything look horrible and everyone in the government look incompetent.
Basically there's been no praise for people taking care of the refugees, no praise for the search and rescue teams, and no praise for ordinary people who helped one another survive this thing. As weird as it sounds, there's a lot of good work being done. The rescue effort may have taken longer than people wanted, but how many countries could do better? How many countries could do it at all?
In other words, the big complaint from CNN/FOX/MSNBC is "it took too long."
You gotta sift through that.
Again it is about the victims... Most of them already falling through the cracks of the system... Probably the reason it took so long?
It isn't about praising people. Criticism is okay if it is about what I did wrong so I can do it better next time.
There is a hell of a lot of great work out there... Have you've seen the resources that sprang up?... I know it took time... Even faster than in the past.
Just yesterday at shift time, my relief said: "I am getting sick of seeing those people on TV." "Watch, they will get all new houses." I fired back, "How can you think that way!" You know what he said? "Why don't you go live with them!" And sulked off.
How many Americans are feeling this way? We will never know?
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Forgot to add above that those "Cat 3" levees held through the "Cat 4" storm that passed 40 miles to the east.
They are saying the surge started to slosh over the top... That is expected since it was a "Cat 4" hurricane.
What I don't get is before the levee broke, they were saying that the pumps were working and then all of a sudden stopped and broke down... Why the breakdown before the breaches?
Once the Breach happened I could understand that the pumps would go down since they would be submerged (assuming the huge turbines were designed to operate above water).
IMO... Everything leans towards mechanical breakdown, poor maintenance leading to complete failure.
Like your car engine... Does it just blow-up at 3,001 miles since your last oil change?
Older levees and subsequently lower levees have the potential to hold even know the water may be going over the top (but not too much... As in this case). I assume that is why the pumps kicked on when the "Bath tub" overspilled? Why did they break before the breach?
They had to break from behind... What was behind the concrete and earthen structure... Were they maintaining low ground cover on the earthen portions? Anything tall (like trees, shrubs, ect...) with extensive root networks could have caused catatrophic damage.
For some reason I just don't trust the answers they will give. This is the same Corps that is slashing maintenance budgets around the country. This is the same Coprs that is looking to farm out all facits of these critical yet, underappreciated jobs.
I fear too many chefs spoiled the soup.
Again, just my $.02.
Take it for what it is worth.
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If the levee was built for Cat 3 and NO got hit with Cat 4, then why shouldn't it have failed? The parts that failed were recently upgraded, supposedly.
The locals knew they were only safe for Cat 3, but 20% of the city ignored a mandatory evacuation and the governor was reluctant to even call for that same evacuation. There's your problem right there.
I am not disputing that is a problem.
IMO... All facits of goverenment have been cutting. The Corps has gone through a lot.
I have heartburn that EVERYBODY turned a blind eye to what amounted to be a sleeping tragedy. NOBODY CARED.
Everybody talks security in this country. Do we really practice it. NOLA was left unsecure and it went straight up the chain... No matter how incompetant state and local gov't where does the buck stop.
Where was the La National Guard?
It stops some where and blaming "bottom down" is no the answer. Where was the oversight?
This was so typical "not my job" it is too funny.
Who was supposed to be the bigger man, the man with the resources, they guy to say "Stop all the BS."
Dear Mr President
in Politics, Polls, and Pundits
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I don't think that is what they are saying.
He could have called an underling and said get this squared away?
I am saying state and local government were overwhelmed... Ya, probably because their plan (if you want to call it that) was so effed up...
Everybody is to blame.
Once again I BLAME THE US GOVERNMENT more because they were the last line of defense.
They were the establishment (especially the Corps). Through the years they pushed their own agenda's over stop-gap ideas.
Who is to fault for that?
Also, saying things like "Hope we don't get a cat 4/5 storm in 30 years till we finish."
NOLA and La is to blame because they should have said shut the eff up, this is our lives you are dealing with!
They are wrong for capitulating with the US and accepted the federal take on it was acceptable.