Mickey

I am not so sure, he did take his right hand off the ball but his left hand never left the ball and appeared to have control over it in my view. Fouts focused on that right hand coming off the ball for a second but holding it one hand doesn't translate to "losing control for a second". I could see if incomplete was the original call but it seemed pretty thin for a reversal.

I suppose he could have been throwing it where only the WR could get to it but the coverage was so good, that meant that no one could get there. Hey, I'm an optimist. We won a game on the road with Ryan Fitzpatrick at the helm so I just can't muster up to much criticism.

Filling their assigned gaps I imagine. Isn't the 4-3 we run a one-gap system? Each guy jams into his gap at the snap and supposedly, that should mean there is no hole anywhere. Because they don't have to read which gap to hit, they should be able to hit their assigned gap quicker than in a 2 gap system where they have to read the play. It should result in penetration behind the line more often than in a 2 gap system, perfect really for a guy like Williams who is quicker than he is big. But covering every gap leaves you thin. A 2 gap system defends in more depth. Anyway, I think that is why you see our LBs flying in to the mass of bodies seemingly oblivious as to where the ball carrier actually is. I also think that is why we seem to always either tackle the RB for a 2 yard loss or give up a 9 yard gain or more. The LBs fill their gaps at the snap leaving a big empty space between the LOS and the safeties.

Given his limited physical skills, he plays much better than one would expect but a pro bowler? We have been getting blown away on the run plenty this year and he is a DT so he has to shoulder part of the blame. You can't put it all on the LB's. I think Bills fans have a tendency to fall in love with guys with limited talent who play over their heads. But as easy as it is to cheer for those guys, they don't win games for you. I am not saying Willimas is necessarily in that group as a reasonable argument could be made that he is a good player period. But when I read that someone thinks he belongs in the pro bowl, well, I think maybe that is getting just a bit out of hand. Really, does anyone seriously think the only difference between him and guys like Richard Seymour and Albert Haynesworth is a better supporting cast? I trade Williams for Seymour in a heartbeat.

I thought that Marques Murrel, #94, was also involved and may have even thrown a punch but they only showed the replay once as I recall and I was too busy watching Fine's face get whacked to notice much else, anyone have a link to a clip?

Thanks, you are more than holding your own. There actually were decent, rational reasons for the Bills to play hardball with Peters. In my opinion the balance of interests weighed heavily in favor of signing him to a new conrtract in the spring of 2008 but there were good arguments to make on the other side. What was maddening to me was that rather than make those rational arguments, people like Sen mostly hurled personal insults of the worst kind at Peters and at anyone on the board who dared post anything supporting Peters or questioning the wisdom of the team's strategy. I never understood and still don't, why it is that people here turn with such a mean spirited vengeance against fellow Bills fans who disagree on some issue related to the team. It is one thing to post your opinion that Peters or Jauron is a moron but quite another to post that anyone who disagrees is also a moron. It is obnoxious and regularly leads to one toxic thread after another. Can you even imagine anyone showing up at a tailgate and saying that kind of stuff to peoples faces? I doubt even the worst offenders here would of act like that on their worst day. But give them a patina of anonymity and watch out. I guess that is the nature of these boards so you just have to deal. If you can avoid wrestling with the trees, there is a forest of information to be found here.

I don't really see how any of that matters. The reall issue is what happened during the offseason in 2008, not the failed attempt to sign him before the 2009 draft resulting in the trade to Philly. The Bills could have and should have signed him to an extension then. Something they could have done for less than whatever he was asking a year later. That was before the press conference Brandon had when camp opened in 2008 publicly calling out Peters. Throughout the contractual impasse that offseason, Parker and Peters did not classlessly conduct negotiations in public or try to use fan pressure against the Bills by getting them all riled up with a press conference of their own. The Bills poisoned their relationship beyond repair. I said then that it was a mistake to alienate a very good player who, sooner or later, you are going to have to negotiate with. I said then that Peters would end up never wanting to play for the Bills at any price. He wanted a new deal, they wanted one more year out of him before discussing a new deal. The two sides had nothing to really talk about all offseason and during training camp. Neither side blinked until Peters finally reported in time to make sure he didn't miss a game check. About the only significant event in that whole time was the press conference Brandon had afterwhich this board exploaded. People actually believed that the problem wasn't the money now or next year problem but a communication problem. The only reason for Brandon to do what he did in that press conference was to use the press and the fans to pressure Peters. It didn't work. Parker and Peters whatever mistakes you may think they made, they never played that card. It looks to me like the Peters haters have had to abandon their first point which was that Peters stinks and our line was improved without him because Walker and Chambers showed they were just as good when they held down the fort early in 2008. They seemlessly moved off of that to Demetrius Bell being the reason we didn't need Peters. Now that iit s clear that it was a mistake to lose Peters, something that was obvious everywhere outside the confines of this board, they have moved to a different point, that Peters wasn't going to sign with the Bills at any price so the Bills didn't really lose him, they had no choice and just did the best they could. That notion however ignores what started in February of 2008 and focuses only on what little we know about the negotiations in 2009 that ultimately failed. For those who want to torture themselves and those who will demand links, here is a link to a post showing my opinions then with links on the negotiations: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?...amp;pid=1111692 In February of 2008, Peters had not yet held out, there had been no stupid press conference flaying Peters to the fans and Peters was a year further from free agency than he was in 2009. He wanted a new deal then and they wanted another year out of him under his old contract. It was a standoff that ultimately resolved to the detriment of the team and its fortunes on the field. You simply do not improve a team by losing good players. Why fans get so obsessed over player contracts as if Ralph's money was their money, I'll never understand. So many get positively apoplectic over the idea of a player getting paid more than he is worth. Far less concern is ever expressed when a player is performing better than his contract. My only concern about contracts is the effect it has on keeping good players. Peters was a good player. So was Pat Williams, so was Antoine Winfield, so was Jabari Greer. If anyone of us picked up the paper in the morning and saw that the Bills just signed anyone of those guys, we'd all be smiling for a day or two over it.

I really don't think Ralph cares at all about the money. The man, bless his soul, is not long for this earth and he knows that. Beyond immortality, I don't think there is anything he wants more than a championship before he dies. I think he kept Jauron on knowing that if he canned him last year, it would be 3-5 years before we were a contender again. So he took a gamble on DJ, hoping that the first 6 games last year was the more accurate gauge of how good a team he had than the last 10. It just doesn't make any sense for a guy this close to eternal rest would give a rat's a-- about the balance sheet beyond his ability to have enough $ to get and keep good players.

Agreed and to those of you who don't know our history, if AD and I agree on anything, you can bank on it as a fact.

goo goo ga-joob

weak arm = another texas bust

McCoy doesn't have the arm to play in the nfl and certainly not in buffalo. I don't think we need another Texas bust. I want guys who have the gun, Pike, Locker, etc.

I am not sure you can even say "aside from Clevelan", they did just beat us, at home no less.

Yeah, cuz farmers never take money from the government... Not a hint of elitism in your declaration of farmers as the "salt of the earth" is there? Next you are going to tell us that they are the reason America is great. All us city folk are just so much chopped liver, anti-American, welfare loving commies, thats us. Of course, the fact that our taxes keep the rural states afloat while they reap the fruits of our prosperity never seems to come up in all their screeds about hand outs. Check it out, every year the more populous states pay way more in taxes than they get back in spending while the rural states, you know, the salt of the earth, heart of America states, routinely pay less than they get back. Turns out farmers just love their pork. Conversations like this are exactly why we don't need Rush Limbaugh in the NFL let alone as our owner. The last thing we need around here is another reason to go at one another rather than, ya know, talking about football. Of course, if you want the bills to be the center of controversey every year and think that having an inveterate racist as its owner will attract free agent talent then I guess Rush is your man.

If you really want to have a good cry, look where they rank the CBs, league wide. Three of the top 5 are former Buffalo Bills. Clements, Winfield and Greer. Sheesh. TKO is the top rated inside LB and London Fletcher is ranked 10. Add Peters to that mix. That means there are 6 guys ranked in the top 10 at their position that could be on our roster right now. Who would have thought that letting good players go every year would matter? I am beginning to think that we may very well have the worst front office in the entire league.

People, well dumb people anyway, can't seem to distinguish between a player's personality and his ability on the field. Whether or not a player helps you win or not has nothing to do with whether you love him or hate him. For the Senator, that is all that matters, hence all his mocking posts which end with "I Love Jason Peters". I don't even know the guy let alone "love" him. He is a good player though which is kind of all that matters. But for the Senator, it's all about who he likes and doesn't like, not who can play and who can't. For a guy like that, the whole debate is between people who love Peters and people who hate him. Meanwhile, the rest of us are trying to talk about, you know, football. I don't know if Peters is kind to animals or if he leaves the seat up. I do know he can block as well as any LT in the league and that my opinion is shared pretty much league wide. No one doubts his ability apart from senator and his lovable posse of guffawing. locker room, towel snapping trolls. But it kinda no longer matters. Peters is gone so good or bad, we are stuck with that one. He was just one player. All you can do is look this year at these young guys and hope to see a bright future. I am sure Peters is doing just fine. He has a pretty good job and a secure future at the moment. Can't say the same for Russ Brandon whose ill considered and classless calling out of Peters at the start of camp in 2008 is why I think Peters wouldn't take the hefty offers the Bills finally made.

Yeah but gosh, who could have seen any of that coming? I mean, why wouldn't pairing a marginal, inexperienced QB with a marginal, inexperienced line succeed? It is just plain mysterious I tell you.

They could have taken Oher and still had Peters and that would have been a great line, not in the making but right now. A few games in, I am not ready to label any rookie "great" or even great "in the making". That is also true for Oher as well. Its all a crap shoot which is why guys who have proven they have "it" are worth so much. I'd rather spend $10 mil a year on guy I know can play than 3 mil per year to 2 or 3 guys that maybe suck, maybe don't.

No they wouldn't have. Or if they did, the back up plan wouldn't have been a guy no one ever thought could play left tackle who turned out to be not even good enough to be on the roster. They also wouldn't have publicly called out the player they are trying to reach a deal with. They probably also wouldn't have....oh god, the list is endless of the freaking mistakes the Patriots surely would not have made. Really, is it such a stretch to conclude that this team, coaches, front office dudes and scouting screwed this up given how clearly they have screwed everything else up as the football we have watched over the last 10 years so amply demonstrates? Did they somehow royally screw up everything and yet managed to handle the Peters issue flawlessly? And Peters turned himself into a pro bowler, the bills didn't wave a magic wand. The guy was tops on every sleeper list, and "project" player list of that draft due to his freakish athletic skills for his size. By the way, how is that "team concept" that we so wonderfully maintained by losing Peters going? Sure made a difference didn't it? Call me crazy but rather than conjuring up some amorphous crap like "upsetting the team concept" and hope that gets a few wins, I would rather rely on players with the skill to perform in this league at the highest levels. So far, our "team concept" has yielded 16 sacks in 4 games and one win, against the 0-4 Bucs. Meanwhile, Philly, despite Peters having laid waste to their "team concept", have given up only 3 sacks and are 2-1 with their only loss to the undefeated Saints with their starting QB on the bench. Where were the complaints that we were upsetting the oh-so-precious "team concept" when Schobel's already titanic deal was redone only a year after he signed it after he skipped some OTA's? The worst personnel decision this team has ever made was to draft Mike Williams. The best decision they have made in years was stumbling across Jason Peters. They manages to bungle that good fortune. As if Peters is the first pain in the neck, self centered athlete with skills to match his ego that ever graced a Roster. Half the best player in the league fit that description. What matters is if they can freaking play. God knows we have very few of those.

They both suck, Scott simply sucks a bit less.

I have heard that assertion many times before and I disagree. I think that it is based in part on underestimating how good the Giants were and and overestimating how good we were. Some of the lopsided wins we had that year and the, at times, unstoppable offense we had caused people to look at the plodding Giants and assume that we would blow them away and when we didn't, rather than suspect that their beliefs were wrong, they concluded that it must have been the result of Marv getting seriously out coached. The Giants were a very good football team and they were well coached. The Giants were brutal on our receivers from the git go, taking them out of the game for long stretches, especially early. There were numerous interference calls that were never made but should have been. That is a commone occurence in super bowls. Its is such a big game, such a big stage, refs don't have the cohones to make such a devastating, game changing call. Get a call like that wrong and you will be featured in every football documentary about stupid calls for the rest of your life. The Giants got away with murder that day and that wasn't Levy's fault. That one long drive, the Bills had opportunities to get off the filed but missed flat out missed tackles they should have made. Credit the Giants, they made some great third down efforts. I don't see how you blame Levy unless you assume that had he been a better coach we would have destroyed the Giants like we did the Raiders or something like that. The team would have won if they had a better kicker. Norwood was always weak-legged and a bit dicey on longer kicks. That ended up costing us the game, not Levy.

Levy was so bad, he was good. He clearly benefitted from the personnel we had which was, at times, unreal. But at the same time, you have to recognize that he was one of the most flexible coaches ever. He listened to his players and his assistants and had no ego about going with someone else's ideas, even if it meant a major variation from his views about how to pay winning football. I also think he had an eye for overlooked talent that wasn't as good as Polian's but was pretty good nonetheless. Some other coach might have to threw the guys out of his office when they suggested going K-gun for the whole game. Another coach might have got into pissing matches over territory when the GM came in and suggested a huge trade or something like stealing Christie off the waiver wire. Levy also found a way to keep all those competing egos happy and satisfied. A guy like Parcells would have insisted on being at the center of every drama, every decision and would reject any good idea that wasn't his. Its not all x's and o's.

I'll give him that. Well said. Especially the part about being delusional.

No offense but I think that is kind of a silly expectation to have. I don't think Dick shares your opinion about his coaching. I am willing to bet he thinks that, if not for his skill and dedictation, the team woudl be even worse. So no, he isn't going to resign. Ralph will have to fire him, not renew his contract, whatever. As much as I want him out of here, there seems little to gain by canning him now and with unless our front office and scouting is also shaken up, firing him won't make much of a difference.

I don't think its coaching myself but for those that do, they aren't talking just about how they are teaching Trent. "Coaching" includes the individual game plans, the overall scheme, play calling and the personnel. I don't think people who talk about coaching are talking about passing drills.