Mickey

He wants 14, they want to pay 12.9, seems like 13.55 should do it. If he won't take that, he is an idiot, if the Bills won't offer that, they are idiots.

If I had suggested that he was done after 8 starts, I would plead guilty to the "crazy" charge. By week 8 he will have had 16 starts and I think that it would be fair to evaluate him. Not give up on him you understand, but begin thinking about a "plan B".

I have no problem starting JP this year, my only concern being that if he doesn't prove himself this year, we may have a bust on our hands. Obviously, if he does well in this, his third year, that won't be a problem. Same as with Aikman. In his third year, Aikman had a 65% completion percentage and a QB rating of 86.7 and he made the pro bowl. If JP does that well this year, we'll all be happy campers. In his second year, Aikman had a 56% completion percentage and a 66.6 QB rating. Had I been in Texas, I would have said that Troy needs to play better in his third year and if he doesn't, start considering another option. He played well, better than well so it would not have been necessary. Thus, even if I had been in Texas, Aikman would have had a fine career. I suppose if you had lived in Cincy, we'd still be waiting for David Klingler to develop, or Akili Smith and Carson Palmer would be playing for someone else.

Exactly. We are talking 600k here.

Patience is fine, of course there will be learning pains but there comes a point where a guy has to produce. At some point, "potential" has to become "performance". The first sign of that this year for JP would be him outplaying Holcomb in camp. So far, neither seems to be distinguishing himself if the camp reports are to be believed. I don't think that is a good sign. I haven't pronounced him to be a failure or advocated starting Holcomb. Just pointing out that at this point, JP hasn't shown much of anything on the field. The only real postives I have heard are amorphous comments like "he looks confident". Sure there have been QB's that were given up on too early. There are also twice as many guys who teams stuck with for way too long hoping that they would somehow finally reach their "potential". For all we know at this point, JP could end up in the hall of fame or selling insurance by 2008. We need to play him to find out which and that is fine...for now but not forever.

Looking at JP's performance would seem to justify their fears of a losing season. Further, subsequent events revealed that their worries that a losing season would cost them their jobs was not "pussified" as much as it was realistic. They did get canned. And Losman didn't lose a whole year, he got all the reps in the OTAs, camp and started for 8 games. If he didn't manage to learn anything in 8 starts then I am even more worried for his future. I'm all for patience and enduring growing pains however, I am not willing to change the primary goal of this team from winning games to training quarterbacks.

Fair enough but one of the reasons he only has 8 games experience is because he played so poorly that he lost his job to Kelly Holcomb. Further, its not like he was only in the league for 8 games. He had a whole year to learn with no pressure behind Bledsoe and then spent the entire off season as the anointed starter, getting all the reps and personal tutelage from old Sam. He went through the entire preseason as the starter as well. Here he is, in his third year and from all accounts, he is not running away with the job. The jury is still out on him but for now, I am disappointed that he hasn't outplayed the pants off of Holcomb in camp. If we are 0-8 half way through and he is playing as bad as last year, should we sign him to a lifetime deal? Why is the notion that at some point this guy has to produce so offensive? I think this is a make or break year for JP. He has to improve or he will be facing a lot stiffer competition in camp next year than Nall and Holcomb.

No final judgment, just taking the pulse. I hoped JP would run away with it in camp from the git go. Hasn't happened at least based on just about every camp report posted here. That is not the end of the world but it isn't a good sign is it?

Its a travesty. Lets start a petition.

How long and how bad does he have to play before it is fair to evaluate him? I certainly agree that 8 games was not enough. By the same token, I am not willing to turn the next two years into an extended training camp for Losman's benefit. At some point, this team's job is to win games, not train quarterbacks.

Didn't the Giants win 11 games with Eli at the hlem last year? He only started 7 games his first year so, applying the JP standard, that year doesn't count. Peyton had a 72 rating, 57% completion rate and 26 touchdowns playing for, at the time, the worst team in the NFL. Sadly, all those rookie year numbers beat JP's second year numbers. Nowhere to go but up I say.

I think when he plays well enough to keep Kelly Holcomb on the bench that would be one sign. Or perhaps improving on his 31% completion percentage in the red zone would be another. If you think the only problem JP has is what those at ESPN are saying about him, you need to watch some tape from last year. Maybe start with his performance against New England, at home. Maybe if he puts up numbers in this, his third year in the league, comparable to what Carson Palmer did in his third year, then maybe we can make that call. Plamer had a 67.8% completion percentage 32 touchdowns and a 101 rating. In any event, we will see this year. I can't imagine that if he has another year like he did last year that we'll be going through this again next year.

This would probably not be the right time to point out that Holcomb actually had a higher yards per attempt average than JP did last year (6.5 to 5.8) or that Holcomb had 14 plays over 20 yards and JP had 15.

That means that the issue was the cash, not the contract length.

Call me crazy but I think this Evans kid is going to stick around. I just see something in him.

Kelly was even better in the USFL so he showed he could get it done from the git go. So did Manning despite the fact that they lost almost all of their games in his rookie year. Despite the lossed, they showed without question that they could get it done. I agree with you that JP was not handled very well at all last year. Still, I think he is running out of opportunities with this team. Why a full year? He started 1/2 the games last year and he was on the team for a whole year before that, presumably he learned something. I don't buy the notion that he wasn't given a chance until now. He was handed the starting job with no competition, no doubts, nothing after 2004. He had the whole off season and camp to prepare to be the starter and he actually started 1/2 the games. Again, I don't think he needs to be great or produce a ton of wins. He does need to show that he has "game". If we don't start seeing that by week 7 or so, I don't think we'll ever see it.

He got half the starts. How many does he need before we can legitimately expect him to start producing, if not wins, at least some hope that we won't need to draft another QB for a long while?

Good point. Maybe the conventional wisdom that Holcomb is mediocre at best is off the mark. I agree that JP is a no-brainer to start unless one of the other two has an eye popping camp and JP plays like a train wreck. Still, at this point in his career, I would have expected to see more. If you told me just before we drafted him that three years later we would be wondering if he or Kelly Holcomb gave us a better chance at winning, I probably would have said "draft someone else". He isn't a bust by any means but at some point, I would argue that this season is that "point", he has to produce. It doesn't have to be wins. When Kelly first arrived, we didn't win right away but he showed enough on the field to leave no doubt that he was all the QB we were going to need for a long while.

I hope your are right, that there is a reason that they are looking mediocre besides mediocrity. I am not sure though that it is "too early to tell" so to speak. This is JP's third year and we had a whole year of alternating QB's between him and Holcomb. They have had 16 or so practice days during those OTA's and we are 1/3 of the way through training camp. Essentially we have had 2 years, 16 OTAs and 8 practices worth of mediocrity. Time for JP to make things happen. He works hard, has all the physical skills and appears to have the righ attitude. He puts that all together, he could be incredible.

That microscope is nothing to what he will face during the season. Camp should be the less stressful situation. If you are right and he is struggling because of camp pressure, what is he going to do when regular season pressure hits? I pretty much agree with everything you say, that JP isn't running away with it in camp but in the end, given his potential, he is our only real option. I was hoping he would win this thing hands down in camp and so far, that isn't happening. Further, I have to wonder about a guy who is unable to out play Kelly Holcomb. I understand that the notion that we should take our lumps with him and so that he has a chance to learn but the same time, there comes a point where just have to face reality, even if the reality is that JP is not an NFL quarterback. This isn't his first year or his second, it is his third. This isn't his first go-round as the starting QB, that was last year. Yeah, they should have stuck with him more but even so, he did start for about 1/2 the year. JP isn't out of chances to show he is the man but he is getting there.

You know the old saying: "Cut off your draft prick to spite your 5-11 record" No, that isn't a typo.

Yep, JP is the only guy on the roster who at least has the potential to lead a team to the playoffs. I was just hoping he would start dominating the QB battle early on and never look back. I am not hearing anything like that so far from the camp reports being posted.

I hope you are right but the comments I have heard form the people posting camp reports are along the following: "Bad things from JP was inconsistency and accuracy, he threw a couple passes into the ground." "Both Losman and Holcomb were good at times and sucked at times." "JP seemed to do great on 7-on-7, but when it came to 11-on-11 he simply didn't perform very well with a rush in his face... He put a couple throws right in the dirt w/ pressure on him." "Both JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb shared the practice time and again neither one stood out." "This is where JP Losman lost the day. He started off by throwing to the feet of Robert Royal and then threw another low pass to Josh Reed's feet...Losman came in and overthrew Daimon Shelton." "When he came back on the field, Losman overthrew Lee Evans and then threw a pass that was a little low to Anthony Thomas..." "Losman forced a pass into coverage that was intercepted by rookie linebacker Keith Ellison." In contrast, I haven't heard anyone report that JP was routing Holcomb which is exactly what he should be doing. I'd hate to think we spent the picks we spent on JP just to get a QB that was slightlly better than Kelly Holcomb. I still expect JP to step it up and be the QB we thought we were drafting and I was hoping that he would do just that in camp from the git-go. I'm just not hearing that in the camp reports though. Update, from the camp report posted for this morning's session: "I only was there for 11 on 11 and 2-minute segments, but I saw 4 interceptions and a couple of bat-downs, plus plenty of pressure from the d-line." "As for the QBs, the word remains "inconsistent". Both looked good at times and both threw some head-scratchers." Again, doesn't sound like JP is running away with the job as hoped. And another update (this from our friend Nick in Rachacha): "So far both QBs are doing about the same in training camp. And if they end training camp in a tie... Well tie goes to JP" Update: "Once in the red zone Holcomb took a few shots at the end zone, but overthrew George Wilson and Parrish and then finished the drive with an interception in the end zone as Matt Bowen picked off the pass intended for Wilson. While JP Losman didn't do much better (going 4 and out on his two minute drill)." And another update: "...Holcomb clearly won this round...Losman seemed to be off target with his receivers and he seemed to throw the ball too late. He overthrew the receivers quite a bit...Losman came in and looked just as frustrated as before...That was probably the worst I have seen him [Losman] look this year." UPdate: Ahh, finally, some good news and a mention of Nance, kewl: "Losman was much sharper today than he was the day before particularly on his deep passes. He dropped a pass over the corner and the safety along the right sideline right into the arms of Davis for a 30-yard play. It was a well-timed and well executed play.Prior to that he made a nice connection with Martin Nance as the timing was perfect on his route down the seam. Parrish also made a couple of good receptions." Update: (from Rockpile on the 8/3 practice) "JP looked much better than Holcomb. He was finding his intended receivers. Passes were tight and he was confidant. Holcomb was hesitant, dumping it off to RB’s a lot, but he is a good QB." Now that is what I want to hear. update 8/4: " Both QBs looked terrible too." Remember the old adage: "If you have a quarterback controversey, odds are neither of them can play." Yikes.

Ladies and Gentlemen....please leave the room as I want to address only the Bills fans among you............ I give you our new starting Fullback: The man, the legend...

This is directed at those who have been able to get out to camp and have seen the two play. I think there is universal agreement that Holcomb is and will never be anything more than a mediocre QB. That being the case, I think we are all hoping that JP wins the starting job and does so handily. The numbers from last year show that they both were pretty awful but that Holcomb was actually a little less awful than JP. What I have heard from a number of you who have posted camp reports does not fill me with a sense of excitement over JP's hoped for improvement. Mostly what I am hearing is that neither one is standing out and that JP is still struggling with accuracy. I haven't heard anyone say that JP is outplaying Holcomb in a big way in camp. Honestly, if JP can't run rings around a mediocrity like Kelly Holcomb, then we have got some problems. So tell me, those of you who have seen them in camp, what is the deal? Is JP wiping the floor with Holcomb? Is it a dead heat? Is there just a slight edge to one or the other? Please, none of that "he looks confident" touchy, feely stuff. Is it too early for JP to be kicking Holcomb's tail? We are 8 practices in to camp with only 17 or so more to go before camp closes and they have had 16 days or so of OTA's as well. Maybe we need to see how they do in a few preseason games but by now, shouldn't we be starting to see JP taking undisputed possession of the QB spot?