Mickey

I think that Villarial is giving the coaches quite a bit of concern and that of all the back-ups, they like Preston the best so they are prepping him for RG. In fact, he is still my candidate for "biggest surprise starter" come opening day.

The key question is not just who was in there when we ran well but who were they up against. First string? Second? Third?

He can't possibly be any good, he has only played in 4 regular season games and and we all know that a QB can't learn a darn thing until he has played a whole 16 game season, all other experience is useless. Or so I am told.

I agree with most of that and would just make the following comments: I don't think we "settled down" as the game progressed but instead, simply fared better against their back ups. JP was still hurt by inaccuracy and whether its physical, mental or whatever, it needs to end. Missing wide open people is inexcusable. Some of those were passes most NFL starters could make in their sleep. That said, he played pretty well last night in most other aspects of the game. I am a little perplexed as to why so many balls went to Aiken. Was JP glued on him or was he just the open guy? On TV, you can't see the rest of the secondary so it was impossible to tell. I'm hoping Aiken was just getting open. The offensive line, when it was first team vs. first team, got their clocks cleaned. No holes for the running game and sacks on the inevitable third and long. That is a too familiar tune for this team. Holcomb might lose the No. 2 job to Nall with another preformance like that. I agree that Gates looked good but he has some holes against the back ups. I don't think Jim Brown in his prime could have done much with the "holes" opened up by the first team.

Defense didn't look so good either, did you see their first series?

Even for a first preseason game, that was uglier than J. Edgar in drag.

I'd take Winfield over Nate any day. Bill B. used to have Brady throw away from him and to Nate's side all the time.

Can't you be more concise?

What do you do if he arrives home to play the Jets with an 0-2 record as a starter? Don't you think he will be looking over his shoulder no matter how many times the coaches say they are sticking with him? Losing can make people change their minds in a hurry.

I don't want to see a repeat of last year, where JP is pulled after a 1-3 start with vets in the locker room pushing for a change. There are two ways to avoid that, JP starts and wins at least one of the first two or start KH and wait for him to prove he is not a starter which won't take long. Once you take the leap that winning now isn't as important as developing JP then it just becomes a question of what course offers the best chance to develop JP. I think an argument, given the opening schedule, can be made that the best way is to let Holcomb get run over in New England and Miami and then put in JP. I'm not saying that it is what should be done. For me, I would start whoever I think gives us the best chance of winning and at this point, I think it is JP given the latest camp reports. At worst, it is a dead heat and JP wins ties.

""Tis a consumation devoutly to be wished."

No, we are football fans. People talk about the weather even though they can't do anything about it. They talk about the past, even though they can't do anything about it. They talk about current events from wars to leaking pipelines whether or not they can do anything about it. If we all only cared about what we can control, we wouldn't care about very much.

You are probably right on that, at least that we won't see JH start for awhile. I wonder though what would happen if JP arrived at week 3 for the jet game with a record of 0-2. I'd bet anything that the media would start questioning the coaches as to whether or not KH should get a shot.

I understand the "if we stink, we stink" notion, that it is more important to resolve our QB situation than it is to win. Not sure I agree but I certainly understand the logic behind it. I have to ask though, how is it that different from what I brought up in this thread that was referred to as "a loser's mentality..."? The simplified question has been, should we start the QB that gives us the best chance to win, even if that is KH or should we start JP regardless because we need to find out what he can do and give him game experience? Most on the board, and I say this after debating this over the last week or so in a number of threads, favor the latter. Start JP, regardless of whether he gives us the best chance to win. You see that position expressed in many ways such as "KH gives us the best chance of going 7-9 this year while JP gives us the best chance at the playoffs next year..." or "if we stink, we stink" etc. Good arguments have been made on this issue, including yours, that winning a few games now is not as important as building a winner long term by giving JP the training he needs. If that is the overriding concern, then if the coaches think we are going to get our hats handed to us in weeks one and two, why not start KH then and let JP come off the bench to thunderous applause in week 3? The critique that this is a loser's mentality is correct, but no more of a loser mentality than the "if we stink, we stink" approach. I just hate the idea of JP coming home in week 3 an 0-2 starter with the media raising the idea of starting KH at every turn. I don't want the coaches tempted to give KH a shot or JP looking over his shoulder wondering when the hook will come. So many seem to think one reason we should play JP for 16 games regardless is because we are going to have a losing season anyway. Why not let KH be the doomed man looking over his shoulder? Fact is, I'm pretty sure that even I don't agree with this but there is a logic to it that could put JP in the best position to succeed, long term.

I am with you on most of that despite your clear attempt to overthrow me as "king of the verbose". If I understand you correctly, any perception by the team that the coaches are doing anything other than all they can to win each week would devastate the team. I agree on that possibility and in fact made the same point last off season along the lines that you can't expect vets to give their all to win a football game you are treating as a preseason training exercise for your QB. Applying this idea to the firs two games, which starter, JP or KH, is the one who sends the signal that the coaches want to win now, this year, as opposed to kissing off this year inorder to take our lumps in promise of better times ahead? Honestly, I would have thought that KH is the guy who gives us the best chance at winning in the short term and if so, applying your idea would result in him being the starter. Now, if your opinion is that JP gives us the best chance at winning and thus we have to start him from the git go or else risk the vets thinking they aren't serious about winning then, of course, JP should start pretty much every game or at least the first 8 or so. Who do you think give us the best chance at winning in the short term, KH or JP?

From a 2 to a 5, the idea is rising in the polls. Cool. Doesn't anyone appreciate a Parcells-like, mess with their heads, personnel strategy?

I agree, this was the best way for them to go as far as these first two games are concerned. I actually think this is in JP's favor as Carolina's first team defense can be nasty. I would think by the third preseason game, they will need to start giving all the reps to the starter. The only reason they might wait is that they won't want to name a starter and then have that guy get outplayed in the last two preseason games. I think the way Jauron handles this will tell us a lot about whether he has the management skills of a top notch head coach. It has to be a pretty delicate situation and the last thing he needs is to have the starter's confidence undercut even before the season starts.

I don't know about that, he seemed to work well with Roscoe in camp last year before he got hurt and he did all right with Reed in the regular season last year. The big thing will be whether or not the QB, whoever the starter is, will find the TE a little more often.

It is the psychology of success. Set JP up in a "can't-lose" situation rather than in a "can't-win" situation. For the sake of argument, assume JP starts the first two weeks and we get our hats handed to us on the road in NE and Miami. Going in to week three and the home opener, what would you guess would be JP's confidence level and attitude? Do you think at that point we would have more or less of a QB controversey? Do you think there would be more or less grumbling in the locker room to give Holcomb a shot? This is not a point I will defend to the death, I'm just having fun trying to project the possible outcomes and what would be best in terms of developing JP and getting the team behind him.

I agree that making decisions based on anticipating losing the first two games is a losing mentality. However, in a slightly different form, that is often the basis I have heard for the idea that we should start JP all 16 games no matter what. My response to that has been that JP should get the nod and there should not be a quick hook. We should stick with him and re-evaluate him down the road, maybe by week 8, to see where we stand. The response to that position has been that finding out what we have in JP is more important than winning this year because the sad fact is that we are not going to win this year. Since we aren't going anywhere anyway we should committ the whole season to starting JP come hell or high water for all 16 games. I have debated this with quite a few people on the board in other threads and they have made some very good points justifying their position that JP should start and start for all 16 games regardless of winning or losing. Rather than debate it anymore, I thought I would just take their position another step in the same direction. Besides, I have to do something to occupy myself until opening day finally arrives.

I have nothing to base this on but my ability to overthink a simple situation and still get it wrong. Here is the hypothesis: The opening schedule this year is pretty tough, opening on the road against New England and Miami. Now I hate to throw in the towel before the games are even played but even so, I see an 0-2 start as being far more likely than 2-0 start. If that happens and we do drop the first two, who is likely to get the blame for that? Probably the starting QB. If JP is the guy, or if you want him to be on the learning curve this year, is it not maybe better to start Holcomb? It would then play out that Holcomb gets pulled after two losses to start the season and JP is inserted as the new starter against the Jets in the home opener. Now that is a game I expect we will win. It would be the reverse of last year, with all the pressure on Holcomb rather than young JP. As the rest of the season progresses and JP has some bad games as he inevitably will, no one in the locker room will have an argument that KH should start. You can just point to those first two games and silence any argument that KH would be any better. From that Jet game on, JP becomes the undisputed starter both in terms of fan support and in the locker room. If you go the other way, by the Jet game with the team at 0-2, there will be thoughts, rumors, grumblings, etc., that KH should get a shot given JP's 0-2 start. Same scenario we had last year. If you do give KH the start against the Jets and we win that game, then again, you have an instant replay of last year. You have that same rotten choice between having a better chance to win or training JP for the future. The only drawback here is if the team wins those first two games but if that happens, then maybe we should be starting KH anyway. Hard to think of being 2-0 as a disaster. There it is. Let KH be the one to have the confidence of the team and the fans shaken by a pair of losses to open the sesason and let JP be the guy who comes off the bench with nothing to lose against the lowly Jets, at home. A win there will silence doubters in and out of the locker room and buy JP some breathing room. At that point, with the KH option already shown to be a dead end, there will be no reason for anyone to wonder, as JP struggles here and there, "could we have won that game if KH was playing?" Rank speculation I know but I would hate to see JP get the start, drop two at the beginning of the season and then have to keep his self confidence as the locker room gumbling begins.

Good point. We learned, mostly after the whole Flutie/Johnson thing was over, that Doug wasn't the sweetheart in the locker room that he was in public. No idea if that is the case with Holcomb but you know, he does have the PR thing down pat, says all the right things, all the tired cliches. JP, for good or bad, does seem to wear his heart on his sleeve. In that sense, I get the feeling that the JP we see in public is probably closer to the "real JP" than is the case with Holcomb.

Actually, I'm pretty hopeful that JP gives us the best chance to win this year, right now. The pre-season games should give us a pretty good handle on where JP stands. I am worried, looking at the schedule, that we might have a pretty tough time of it for the first couple of games. I don't want to see a quick hook if JP is the starter, especially during the early going when we open with two on the road.

You don't think they should try to win this year? Maybe we should bench Clements because, after all, Youboty is never going to get better unless he plays and he is definitely part of the future of the secondary while Nate, due to his contract, is not. I would also bench Gandy and start Pennington or Butler. That is the only way those guys are going to learn how to play. This foolish, selfish obsession with winning is retarding the development of our future lineman. I think we should definitely have Lee Evans sit it out for the year. We already know what he can do and since we have already thrown in the towel on making the playoffs this year, why risk injury to one of our best players? Instead, we should rest him for a year and give his playing time to Roscoe, Nance, Wilson and the rest. The only way they can learn is to start every game in a 16 game season. Otherwise, they will never develop and we will never know if they can hack it or if we should be drafting new receivers next year. No way those idiot coaches should be starting Willis when we still haven't seen Gates play. How will Gates ever learn if he never plays in a real game? Why risk injury to Willis in a season the fans have already thrown away as an extension of the preseason all to get JP some reps.

Playing devil's advocate, anyone who thinks JP gives us the best chance to win has to ignore what happened last year or come up with a bag full of excuses for JP ranging from bad play calling to his inexperience. I haven't been to camp but I have been reading all the camp reports focusing in on the descriptions of the performance of the two QB's. Until recently, it looked like a dead heat. From what I have read though, JP has been playing better this week and at the end of last week. If those observations are correct and I have no reason to doubt them, it looks like JP not only has more potential than KH but is outperforming him in camp right now. Advantage JP. It should be exciting watching him develop. I think he will be the better for having won the job in camp in open competition rather than being handed the job like he was last year.