TwistofFate

Virtual Reality....its out there, but one place im not seeing it used in a place it should be the most, pre draft process. Take Qbs for example. They been measured, tested, broke down film with and questioned. But when are they going to be put in the Vr gear and tested with real NFL game speed before they even step foot on an NFL field? I think the VR is going to revolutionize the draft process in the near future and we will see far less busts in the league. When the time arrives, the most important grade a NFL prospect could receive could be a "VR grade." Im actually pretty shocked some form of this doesn't already exist.

Ive been to eight home games since 1998, not bad for living out of state. (not including preseason, ive been to two) In all my time there, get this..... I've never watched Buffalo lose. I've seen some crazy wins up there. In 08 i watched Trent Edwards lead buffalo from a 9 point deficit in under 6 mins to win against the Raiders. Another favorite game was 05 against the Chiefs, we were picked to lose because of the red hot chiefs offense coming to town, but instead i watched our defense stifle trent green and crew, while Holcomb got wrecked and I got to watch Losman do what he did best....multiple bombs to Evans. I got to watch the last run of Fred Jacksons career in a Bills uniform against the steelers in preseason. A lot of great memories in that Stadium!!! Poor Dick, he looked like he aged 20 years by the time he was done here.

Tre....

Im with you on this. I don't think its even a comparison really. Every qb in this division is unproven. Fitz is the best of the group by far and that's not saying a whole lot. Darnold and Allen are striking no fear in anyone. Stidham is completely untested....and the rookie, Tua, is waiting in the wings. As of right now, this absolutely looks like the worse group of starting Qbs in the same division that I can remember.

Sure, but I would consider it to be more of personal progress than anything. Compared to his peers his growth is minimal. Last in completion %. Last in passing TDs for Qbs who started 16 games. Last in passing yards out of every QB who played 16 games. Last in longest pass out of every Qb who played 16 games. Last in passing yards per game out of every Qb who played 16 games. It's a whole lot of last places for someone who made relatively good progress. His ultimate comparison is against his peers. Realistically he can have small improvements year after year. If he moves into 28th this year in all those categories, its growth, do we stick with him? If he moves into 25th the following year, its growth, do we stick with him? Do you think it's realistic that he jumps to 16-20 in all these categories this season based on what he's done this far? Personally I believe he needs to finish the season in that bracket for me to consider it a successful season with signs of growth.

You're missing my point. My comment was referring to Watson's "twelve infants" experiment. But since you're asking...can a coach teach you to be a professional dart thrower, as in, do it for a living? or...a professional billiard? or a bowler? Just throwing out professions that don't require a ton of physical prowess, but demand precision skill sets. These are examples of things you obviously need some natural talent that can then be honed with practice and training.

Brady was the ?... But, if Belly is as masterful as many believe, he's not trying to win this year. His goal has been to build a defense, tank with Stidham, then draft Lawerence. Brady Round 2....with a defense in place.

Coming from a guy who's name is Buffalo Barbarian, I beg to differ.

And what's wrong with that? Would you not agree Watson had a better receiver which in turn would lead to a drop off scenario? This is a theoretical analysis, which I stated in the third paragraph, that has to do with Qb/Wr relationships. The main topic of the thread is "who makes who."

Should I just use ANY/A to determine? I know its your favorite.

A lot of controversy has always surrounded the question, who makes who? Is it the Qb responsible for the Wr's output, or is it the Wr responsible for the Qb's output? In all actuality it's a bit of both. But, if the data is analyzed and scrutinized, what would it look like and what would it mean? Is there a way to determine based on data who is more responsible for the production and if so, what would it look like? I ask this question because I fully expect many fans with logical capabilities to bring various facts and charts to the forefront to support their theory. I know many on this forum will do so. This will inject much data from multiple different view points. This I believe will bring us closer to the question, who makes who? Based on pure theoretical analysis, I will attempt to answer the question, who makes who. I will supply two graphs as a visual aid to assist in my theory. The first graph I will refer to as "the fall off." The fall off graph, as seen above, represents what I would expect to see when a receiver is more responsible for overall yardage production than a Qb. In this graph, the purple represents a stand out receiver. An elite receiver, so to speak. This receiver would make up the brunt of production based purely on his receiving abilities. The drop off represents the fall off in receiver talent. The elite receiver is capable of making catches that normally wouldn't be made, example, errant throws, one handed grabs, circus catches, etc. This fall off would represent the rest of the receiving corps as lagging behind the top receiver, but is that because those receivers are inadequate receivers or that the top receiver is simply more capable of making much more difficult catches? In theory, I would expect the results shown in graphs number 2, dubbed "the decline," as results that would better represent a Qb more responsible for production than a receiver. The graph above would show clearly there is a number one receiver, but the production is more even distributed among the rest of the receiving group. The theory behind this would suggest the Qb is more responsible for the passing production than the receiver, as he is elevating the game play of all those around him on a consistent basis. On time, accurate passes would increase the production of nearly every Wr in the NFL. There is a clear number 1, but the fall of is not as drastic for the rest, because they all would be catching mostly catchable passes they would be expected to catch. The gradual decline would suggest a decline in WR talent in terms of not catching passes they shouldn't have caught. Better WR's catch passes they shouldn't have normally caught. The cream rises to the top, so to speak. Of course there are other variables that are involved in this. Rooke WRs, new Wr's to the team, rapport between Wr and Qb, and receivers that are simply, not that good. But in pure terms of trying to evaluate who is more responsible for the production, I would expect to see graphs that are similar to these. Thoughts?

Allen led Wyoming to a 16-9 record in his starts, comprising the program’s most successful two-year run since the late 1980s. He beat Mountain West standbys Boise State once and Utah State twice. In all honesty, that is why he had a lens on him. His physical traits are the stuff dreams are made of, his personality and leadership are to die for, but....... the production was never there. By the looks of things, the Bills brass believe this production could be coached. To be honest this is looking more and more like a John B. Watson "twelve infants" experiment than anything else. Some things, just cant be taught.

Im not saying stats are the end all be all, but 9 times out of 10, you aren't even on an NFL radar unless you are putting up big numbers against the best college has to offer. Hell, you aren't even on college scouts radar unless you are putting up huge numbers in high school. Stats are what catch the attention, if you arent putting them up, you aren't even looked at in most cases. Sorry, I don't buy this inferior arm stuff. Joe Montana, QB, Notre Dame “He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he’s in a crowd. He’s a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn’t have great tools, but could eventually start.” – Anonymous scout, 1979

Paying top 10 Qbs a ton of money is the trend and it wont change. If Allen jumps to middle of the pack this year, (real progress) pick up the 5th year option. If he jumps to the top 10 in year at the end of year 4 (more real progress) you sign him long term to a big time deal. I'd have zero problem with that route. Pay the man his money and lets win some championships. If he fails to make that jump this year, no 5th year option. Bring in a solid vet, or if Fromm shows he's capable, you have a qb battle for the starter heading into year 4. No more free ride or benefit of the doubt, make Allen earn it or lose it. I believe he's come to a crossroad. If he loses out, offer him a back up contract or let him walk. This team is ready for the next step in its evolution. Without a franchise guy we are wasting the rest of our talent. Our window is the next 3 years to put it all together and compete for actual titles.

Everyone is right until someone is wrong. ☺

Its just the fact that anyone who doesn't agree Allen is the second coming, has an "agenda." P. S..... He is inaccurate.

Am I understanding you correctly? You want to let a legit franchise Qb walk because you'd rather have our starting Qb on a rookie salary?

I am sick and tired of the New England Patriots love. Tom Brady was New England and without him they will crumble. If it isn't evident to anyone yet it will be after this season.

I have no idea how this dude came up with half the grades and places in which he put teams. Singletary was a top 5 back in the NFL in YPA, with 5.1, yet he's rated a 79? Yea...no

https://youtu.be/PfYzAoF3lx4

Regress is such a strong word but as much as I hate to say it, Tre White. I think he's really going to be challenged this year. He has made a real name for himself, is a marked man, and we will face some top tier offenses this year. I think we will see a drop off from him, maybe not major, but "uncharacteristic."

What i'm trying to say is why put so much solely on intangibles and physical traits? Why take a risk that big when the main body of his work, his actual production on the field, is so low? Why not look for the "it" factor, but also have stats to back it up? That's just untrue. In his draft day thread, (i believe) I posted many, many, articles predicting him to go first day, maybe first overall, prior to right before his last season started.

If he can linger around that upper middle of the pack Im fine with it too.

Yes...the intangibles. Not sure what's so funny. "Such a story shows exactly how much stock the Bills put into the intangibles. Thus far in his short career, it seems like Allen’s certainly got that part of being an NFL quarterback down." - excerpt from the article I provided. Aside from just having elite physical tools, Allen had nothing else but intangibles to go on. His college stats are almost exactly what they are in the NFL. College vs Pros (2 year averages) Games played 25 vs 28 Completion Percentage 56.2 vs 56.3 Passing Yards 2507.5 vs 2581.5 Average Yards per Attempt 7.6 vs 6.2 TD's (passing) 22 vs 15 Interceptions 10.5 vs 10.5 His "intangibles" are things that can't be measured. Intelligence is measured. Accuracy is measured. The "it factor" is the intangible. It can't be measured. It's something you feel, your intuition about the individual. Beane clearly explains he was sold on Allen because of the "it" factor. 1:25 mark

And compare that to the West Coast tree... As well as the Air Coryell tree