K-9
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name='Gordio' date='Apr 21 2008, 01:53 PM' post='1010672']
Okay, then Im an idiot I guess for thinking Losman is a bad qb. Never said he was the sole reason the bills lost those games yet... in games he did not start for the bills in that same three year period where he went as a starter 10-21 the bills are 9-8.quote]
That's interesting. I didn't know that. So then the SAME player personnel and coaches all the other QBs were surrounded with managed a winning percentage of .523 while the SAME player personnel and coaches managed just .323 with JP at the helm?
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He has played THREE YEARS in the NFL. IT IS NOT TOO LATE IN HIS CAREER TO TALK ABOUT PROMISE! The fact he got yoyoed in and out of the lineup so much speaks more about the INEPT COACHING than it does JP. Next year when the same thing happens to Trent what will you have to say? This is truly the reason JP haters want him gone. They are afraid (rightly so) that the same thing will happen to Trent if there is a viable option on the bench.
No, he's played 4 years in the NFL. Yeah, it sucked he was hurt for two months as a rookie, but he attended EVERY OTA and mini-camp where he got valuable reps, was in EVERY position and unit meeting before and after getting hurt, and DID see some meaningless game action later in his rookie season. We can't just dismiss his rookie season as not counting because he missed two months of physical action. He wasn't going to play that year anyway. It was his time for carrying the clipboard and learning the um, MENTAL aspects of the game.
Do you also think JP has to play an extra year then to become vested and qualify for his pension as a result of his rookie year that didn't count?
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I'm pretty sure he played mostly on the inside in college. He was used in a lot of screens and quick slant routes.
I would venture to guess that has more to do with his college QB and the fact that Nelson's a playmaker than it does with him being more suited to a slot role.
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I don't see it working out. You have two quarterbacks that have skill sets to flourish under completely different schemes. JP should be a scrambling, out-of-the-pocket QB. Trent is a pocket QB with a quick release. With each style, you have plays developing further, or quick dump-offs. Both systems have their advantages and both have disadvantages. But one certainty is that once you have your scheme, you build your team. You should not force a player to adapt to a scheme. If this is a conservative passing system, then JP might have the ability to fight for the starting job, but he is being set up to fail.
If you're talking about a QB who can scramble to buy some extra time when a play breaks down, that's one thing. And JP has the athletic abilitiy to avoid a rush at times (at times) and make a play. If you're talking about designing an entire offense around a scrambling QB with lots of rolling pockets, etc. well it just ain't gonna work in the NFL. Never has, never will. There's a reason an OC prefers to have pocket passers STAY in the pocket; if offers MORE field to exploit. All 3/3 of it.
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I remember him being picked on constantly in 3 WR sets, but maybe my memory is fading.
No, your memory is quite correct. We had to move Winfield over to cover the slot receiver in our nickel package. Watson wasn't quick enough. And Watson was picked on CONSTANTLY. That's why he showed a few flashes but he wasn't a good CB. As a CB he was a GREAT punt catcher.
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Mock Draft
11. Buffalo. WR Devin Thomas, Michigan State. The negatives: Only a one-year starter, not always focused on the task at hand, one leg is shorter than the other. The positives: a 6-2, 4.45-ish deep threat with good hands. It might take him a year, but he should be a good pro.
Is he 6-2 when he's standing on the longer or shorter leg?
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With the way refs officiate pass defense, teams are better off just trying to find a few guys in the draft that may develop. Overpaying for a CB is never a good idea. Deion Sanders may have been the only corner in the modern era that could completely change a gameplan. The Giants won the Superbowl by rendering the WR/CB matchups obsolete. A QB can't complete a pass from his arse.
You have no idea how correct you are in that statement. He was the best CB to ever play the position, hands down. I've never seen ANYONE take away as much field as he could. People around here, because they don't like the 'Primetime' persona, will knock him for not being better at run support. That's a laugh! When you have the best pass defender of all time you don't want him getting hurt making a tackle on a running play.
BTW, Deion was considered by those that played with him as a consumate locker room guy. Those reports first serviced when he played for the Yankees of all teams. He really took that dressing down by Carlton Fisk to heart as well. Despite his showboating antics and the media spectacle he created off the field he was humble enough when it mattered. And he was always considered one of the hardest working players off the field. You don't get that good just because you're fast.
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It is true of course that JP had the same players to work with as Edwards last year, but the gameplan that Fairchild (I'm assuming) forced him to work with was essentially tailored for him to fail IMO. We all know Losman's strengths and weaknesses by now, and three step drops/short passes are clearly not one of his strengths. Stretching the field and letting him get out of the pocket to use his athleticism are, and the playcalling, particularly early in the season, just didn't allow him to do that. I do think it's Trent's job to lose, but I also do not believe that Losman was given a very good opportunity to succeed last season at all.
I've been posting about the defenses we've faced since the Denver game last year. Here's the simplist way of putting it: there was NO field to be stretched last year. In the first two games I counted Evans as having single coverage 5 times. On 3 of those occassions, we attempted to go long to him and simply missed. Since the Houston game in '06 DCs have made it a point NOT to get beat by Evans deep, knowing full well the strength of JP's arm. Do you know what the EASIEST route to take away from an offense is? That's right. Unfortunately, JP's biggest weakness is not being able to go to his second options with any consistency. Evans' inability to beat double teams with regularity was a contributing factor as well so it wasn't all on JP.
I like the idea of a rolling pocket but you simply can't do that more than a few times a game. Yes it takes advantage of JP's athleticism but it SEVERELY limits the space in which an offense can operate. It effectively reduces the field by 2/3. Again, it's too easy, especially for good defenses, to limit rollouts.
This idea of exploiting JP's arm strength anytime we want would suggest that we should just take what we want. Our offense is FAR from being able to do that. When we can take what the defense gives us consistently we will be able to dictate more often. Unfortunately that requires the ability to read defenses both pre and post snap. JP is just not adept at that for whatever reason. That's not putting him down, it's just an honest evaluation of his ability to read a defense.
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This kind of logic is what cracks guys like me up. People will readily admit that JP had a bad OL and was given no help at all, and yet you want to take THAT situation and compare it to Trent, who was afforded a stout new line and a running back who knew the difference between 3rd and 4th down when taking the field. The only way you can truly compare JP's first two season's with anything Edwards' has done is to stick Edwards behind that crappy OL with a braindead running back and THEN let me know how good he is.
Yeah, I know. I'm making excuses. I get it. But you can't have it both ways. I expect our OL to be much more effective this year with a full year together under its belt. I expect playcalling to improve significantly, even it if it is as a result of addition by subtraction (Fairchild). In fact, this offense simply has to show up on Sunday and stay healthy to instantly be better than last year's version.
It amazes me that people will B word, moan and whine about all aspects of this team, but when they start bashing on Losman, they forget all the other shiit they were bitching about and believe that Losman was really the reason, regardless of all the other shiitty parts of this team.
JP had the same opportunity to benefit from the same improved OL and RB. In fact he had first and third crack at it. He didn't take advantage of the opportunity.
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JP has had good and bad games, while Trent has been a bit under 50/50. Both are very young and have upside but are unknown quantities who stepped into a starting role too early in their careers
You're preaching to the choir, Adam. However, with regard to the 'unknown quanitities' aspect of JP's career, I have to disagree. Trent may very well end up being worse but the point is we won't know that until he has 30+ starts under his belt. JP, on the other hand, has shown the same propensities in terms of awareness and mechanics that he showed in his rookie camp. Doesn't matter if it was his coaching, the play calling, etc. What matters is he hasn't shown the EXPECTED progression over 4 years that one would like to see, let alone what his coaches NEED to see.
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and on that same token of taking away jp's 2 83 yard bombs to evans vs/ hou...
i wonder how good trent edwards' breakout year last year is without his aberration game vs. miami.
Not sure how one can call anyone's rookie year a 'breakout' year but go ahead and take away his Miami game. Not sure that has ANYTHING to do with my request but if it makes you feel better and you care to do the revised ratings, feel free.
Nice try at attempting to make my post yet another JP/Trent thing. I'm not interested in that on ANY level. You'll have to find another sucker willing to take the bait.
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Maybe it's because the JP haters tend to lump the Losman supporters all together. I don't know. I remember a couple of post where some fan(s) were saying things like that and I thought they were idiots for doing so.
During the searing QB debate last season I most certainly did "cut down" Edwards in terms of his ability, or lack there of, in throwing touchdown passes, putting points on the board, his performance in the last three games, and leaving Buffalo for three months after his rookie season in which he was named the starter. What, I can only defend Losman as long as I don't knock Trent? This doesn't make any sense, isn't that the point of an argument? As for personal attacks, yes I did attack others that attacked me. Not proud of it, but if you remember it was awfully nasty here while the whole transfer of power was going on, especially if you still thought JP was better than Trent. Some of the Trent supporters were nothing less than ruthless in their enthusiasm towards their hatred for anything positive said of Losman. It's all water under the bridge now.
None of which has anything to do with me wanting him to do badly or wanting JP to come back and whip the Bills ass playing for someone else. Look, I hope Trent throws 30 TD passes this season, I hope he is half the QB some here think he is. I want the Bills to win regardless of who is playing what position. Period, end of story. Go Trent!!! Go Bills!!! Jeez, it's become the freaking spanish inquisition around here.
Now that's a post I can respect. Probably because I agree with everything in it.
Again, my apologies if I have you confused with someone else.
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You say that you're giving me the benefit of the doubt, yet call it my M.O.???? Save it assh*le. I'm done with both of you. I refuse to carry on a conversation with a couple of jerks who are spreading outright lies about what I've said about my team. Neither of you morons are worth my time.
Calm down, Francis. Again, if I'm incorrect, I apologize. But what are the odds of two seperate posters having the same recollections of your past posts? Do you deny that your posts in defense of JP have tended to cut down Edwards at the same time? Defend JP all you want. You don't have to tear anyone else down in the process.
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1st off, great is totally subjective and your question didn't ask whether they would have started on Jimbo's team or not.
Marshawn Lynch, Lee Evans and Jason Peters are 'great' players to work with. That's my illusion and I'm sticking under it...
I agree 'great' is a subjective term. Again, the poster I originally responded to used the phrase. I use 'could have started on Jimbo's team' as hyperbole as a way to illustrate my great respect for Peters. Nothing more. It was NOT an invitation for you to have to come up with players from our current team that could have played on those squads.
We could do a lot worse than Lynch, Evans, and Peters. Lots of teams would want them. That's not an illusion at all.
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Do you really believe that?
I believe Peters is THAT good. And will get even better. Unlike Ballard or Wilford, he's not playing with 4 other pro-bowlers (and a fifth who should have been in Davis). And he REALLY misses having a Kent Hull out there, the QB of the OL. The scary part is that he's still kinda green from a technique point of view. He makes up for it with pure athleticism. And he's only played the position for what, 1.5 years? If he stays healthy I predict he'll go down as the best Bills OLman of all time. And that's coming from someone who REALLY appreciates what Billy Shaw and that line from the early 90s could do.
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You dont owe him an apology. He said something to the tone of I hope Losman goes to another team & lites our ass up twice a year.
That's why I'm convinced I was correct in the first place, but in all fairness I can't recover the lost posts so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I've read his ramblings for a while now, including the one you mentioned. It's his M.O. to a tee.
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Really, where would Peters have started? Who on that line would you have benched?
Sh*t, leave it to you to call me out on this. But I'm ready and able, blasphemous as it sounds. And I will not use the word 'benched' because, afterall, we are talking about Pro-bowl players. I will use the term 'step in for' instead. Peters could have stepped in for EITHER Wilford or Ballard. He's bigger and FAR more athletic than Wilford was so perhaps I put him in on the left side. He's as strong as Ballard and again, quicker, so I KNOW he'd do the job as the run blocker that Ballard did but in the interest of creating the best OL, he 'steps in' for Wilford.
Phew!
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Kennison wouldn't have been Lofton? Try he wouldn't have been Don Beebe
Good point, Adam. But if he has any speed left, I'd be open to having Kennison come in for at least a look if he's interested. We could do worse.
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Kelly was on the board at #11. And the Bills took Tony Hunter.
LMAO! Good one.
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Now you're telling lies about me saying I hope the Bills sucked with Trent at the helm? That's nice. Great data dump or no great data dump, I've never stated or secretly wished the Bills to fail regardless of who was at QB. If fans here are now going to resort to outright lying to help support their own misguided opinions then we are all seriously f'd here at TSW. You can distort the facts all you want, but I definitely won't let you get away with lying about what I said bro.
If I'm confusing you with someone else please accept my sincere apologies. But it was definately someone with a VERY similar handle. Is there a billsfan1 perhaps?
But while we're on the subject of outright lying to support our own 'misguided opinions' (interesting choice of words there, BTW), then I will expect that from here on out you will refrain from grouping me with all those you label "Trent lovers" or whatever you call anyone who points out JP's shortcomings.
Just as you claim to never have said you wish the Bills to fail to prove your point about the QB, I have NEVER said Edwards is the answer. I have said on numerous occassions, and have since he was a rookie in camp, that JP lacks certain elements in his game to be a consistent starter in the NFL and that Edwards is the best option AT THE MOMENT.
Do you see the nuance there?
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you made some good points and some really bad ones.
Yes, Marchibroda looked liked an outstanding OC when JK was calling his own plays. Was he a great OC? Subjective....
Fairchild was a terrible OC last season, just terrible. Going back to 2006 and comparing his performance is not worth the effort. I can't imagine the 2008 season with him on the sidelines. We should all send the CSU Board of Directors thank you cards, since they saved this team from retaining their offensive basement status, because Jauron (in all likelihood) would have kept him.
Jauron was in a tough position. He could promote Turk and take his chances that continuity trumped experience or he could go out on the open market and hire the latter. Then he's taking his chances that experience or reputation is worth starting over with a new system, and that his job might go out the window waiting for the team to jell. Since they haven't even started training camp, the jury is still out on that decision.
Last time I checked, you couldn't get that yellow blazer until you played a while and retired for a few years. So, comparing our current QB(s) and RB or any of our current roster to Levy's is pretty silly. Once again, we don't know and I'd venture to guess that we have no clue how they will compare until they've played together a while.
WR and TE are evolutionary this season. Will we draft and/or trade for a stud WR or 2? Will Evans shift gears and reach his potential? Will the current TEs or some draft pick lift this moribund position into a red zone threat and relief valve for a young quarterback? More crystal ball stuff. The real answer is that we need to get way better, quickly with our receiver corps.
IMO and others, we have 1 of the best OLs in many years and maybe a season or a player away from domination.
I'll stand up and say YES, we have some great players on this team right now!
Who and by what measure? Potential? I've got to see it realized. Peters is a definate. He'd have started on Jimbo's line. Everyone else on the offense is a huge question mark.
Of course you're correct it takes an entire career to get that blazer. And I admit it's unfair to compare our current group with a once in a lifetime group of players. But I include them in the discussion because the poster I was responding to brought Marchibroda into the discussion. That made it relevant.
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Hmmmm, maybe if we take away Losman's touchdown passes we can somehow win this argument.
You guys are too freaking much.
Nobody is looking to 'win' an argument that can't be won. I was just interested as it goes to support what the coaches already know. And what people who analyse the game (both professionally and as a hobby) already know as well. No surprise your panties would get all bunched up, though.
"You guys?" I know you have this yearning need to assume that ANYONE who deigns to point out the shortcomings in JP's game is automatically a Trent lover. But you'd be wrong. What a surprise.
It's time for you to remove the highschool-cheerleader-with-a-crush-on-the-varsity-QB emotion from the issue. You have proven time and again to be less than impartial on the issue as your incessant rants have suggested. Lucky for you the posts where you flatly state that you hope the Bills suck next season with Edwards at the helm were lost in the great data dump. Unlucky for you that you're so transparent on the issue.
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If you think that the Bills were letting JP throw the ball in 2007 as early and often as they were in the second half of 2006 then you sir, are crazy.
What part about "defenses took away the long ball and Evans couldn't find ways to beat double teams consistently" don't you understand? They called it a few times early (Denver anyone?), it didn't work, JP (as usual) panicked when his first option was gone, and the rest is history. In fact, at one point in the first two games last year, I counted on one hand the number of times Evans had single coverage while JP was the QB. 3 of those 5 times the Bills attempted the long ball.
I may be crazy but I know what defenses the Bills faced all year. I know that since the Houston game in '06 EVERY DC made it a point NOT to be beaten by Evans. And for the most part they've been VERY successful at taking him away.
I may be crazy but it's plain STUPID to suggest that the Bills should have just taken what they wanted against defenses last year. We are FAR FAR from being able to do that. I don't care who's under center. We will ONLY get to the point of being able to take what we want when we're able to PROVE we can take what's there with any kind of consistency. When we FORCE defenses to adjust. You can't do that unless your QB can read defenses.
But that 60 yard incompletion is SO MUCH PRETTIER than the short one, isn't it?
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You know what the bills offense was ranked in 2006 as per yard per game? 30th. People have this fantasy that the offense & JP in particular brokeout in 06'. It just did not happen. JP had a few good games surrounded by mostly mediocre games & a few horrible games. He did not have a breakout season.
Tough to ignore the stats when comparing 06 & 07. Passing offense the bills ranked 28th in 06, averaging 169 yards per game & totaling 2,719 yards in JP's supposed breakout year. In 07', where everybody pretty much agrees the offense was a disaster & not to mention the fact that the bills played in two late season games where the weather made it virtually impossible to throw the ball, & they had a 3rd round rookie qb for half the season the stats are surprsingly similar to Jp's breakout year. 30th in passing offense, 164 yrds per games & total yrds of 2,668. 06 numbers were better in td/int ratio - 19/14 to 12/14 but other then that, the stats are very similar.
I'm one of those guilty of describing '06 as 'breakout' for JP. But you're entirely correct. It's just that we were so full of optimism for the guy and he really SUCKED in '05, that well, even a mediocre year sprinkled with a couple big plays, seemed like a HUGE improvement.
Just for grins, I'd be interested to see what happens to JP's 'breakout' year after removing the two bombs in the Houston game. Which I don't like to do because I'm not one to parse stats. We have to judge the entire body of work, warts and all. Just as you did in your post. But I'm curious. Just too lazy to plug in the revised stats.
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Heard on Sirius radio that JP
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I appreciate your view but the same organization that retarded his development in year one also named him uncontested starter in year two. He must have done SOMETHING during his OTA, mini-camp, training camp, reps from his rookie year to merit that confidence, no? Regardless, he got his REAL reps his second, third, and fourth year and didn't capitalize. For whatever reason. My point is that one cannot simply dismiss his rookie year because he missed two months with an injury. We've all watched him closely since training camp in his first year and he was making the SAME mistakes against the Jags last year as he was then. What does that tell you? It's more than just coaching for starters.
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