mjt328

In my opinion, this is a very valid thread topic. And very Bills related. Lots of Bills fans have suggested that Ralph Wilson is cheap when it comes to hiring coaches, and is unwilling to give up the power necessary to draw in a proven commodity. Many believe that is one of the main reasons this team has struggled for so long. St. Louis is taking a very aggressive approach this offseason. Quite the opposite of the Buffalo Bills. It will be interesting to see which team turns it around first.

When Tom Donahoe was the GM. During his tenure they were great in free agency. Unfortunately, they couldn't get the right coach and their drafting was mostly below average.

I'm also a believer that defensive teams have an edge in the postseason (for several different reasons). But I would hardly call San Francisco's win a great defensive effort. They allowed 32 points to their opponent, despite getting FIVE TURNOVERS.

You know what makes me mad? I live in St. Louis and get NFL Sunday Ticket. If the Rams game doesn't sell out, then it gets blacked out on Sunday Ticket too. Even though I paid to watch EVERY NFL game!!!!!!!! The only time I can imagine wanting to watch the Rams is when they are playing the Bills every 8 years, but still...

I'm not a supporter of Fitzpatrick as our starter, but I agree with this. Dalton has looked solid as a rookie, but I don't see anything that makes me believe he will be a great NFL quarterback. I didn't regret passing on him in the second round back in April, and after a full season, I still don't. In five years, I think Dalton will still be a middle of the road starter. Personally, I was a big fan of Ryan Mallet. It will be interesting to see what happens when he finally gets his shot.

What can we learn from this weekend's game? How about: No matter how bad an NFL quarterback is playing, you never want to spend an entire game with 9 MEN IN THE BOX!!! I understand that Tebow had been struggling pretty bad. And even Denver's coaches didn't seem to trust him under center. But Pittsburgh's gameplan was ridiculous - and they got burned for it. How little respect do you have for an opposing quarterback to play most of the game without at least one deep safety?

The Bills would be stupid not to consider options for trading up (for Griffin or Luck). Until we get a better quarterback, this team will always be mediocre.

It's not all his fault. But there is no doubt that Fitz is big contributor to our 10-22 record over the last two seasons. And considering how important the quarterback position is in the NFL, he might be the biggest problem. Everybody makes a bad throw once in awhile. But you will never see the top QBs in this league consistently miss open receivers like Fitzpatrick. You will never find a top QB go weeks at a time without hitting even one deep throw. If you don't believe me, just watch a game involving Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan, Roethlisberger, Manning, Stafford, Rivers, etc. Fitzpatrick does make some beautiful throws occasionally. I like his fire and I like his competitiveness. But it's those 5-6 overthrows and misfires (I'm being generous here) each week that will keep him from being a consistent winner in the NFL.

It's not quite that simple. A few things to consider: >> VERY FEW teams in the NFL could lose their Future Hall of Fame starting quarterback before the season, and still have a good season. The position is simply too important, and it's not easy to find a good one. A lot of teams don't have ONE good quarterback, much less two. >> I remember hearing Jeff Saturday say earlier this season that the Colts run the most complicated offense in the league. That cannot be understated. Saturday said he didn't believe anyone in the NFL could just step on the field and run it successfully. And he said that with Kerry Collins (a 16-year NFL veteran) as the starter. Losing Manning's talent was one thing. But the Colts also lost the ability to simply RUN their regular offense. >> Also consider that in early September, the Colts still thought Manning was going to play in Week 1. Within a span of DAYS, there were questions that he was going on I.R. The Colts didn't have a lot of time to prepare anyone else to run the team. They suddenly had the choice to start Curtis Painter (a guy with no NFL starts in two seasons) or sign a guy off the street. >> People seem to have understand the Colts offense stinking without Manning, but they can't believe the Colts defense playing so bad. What they forget is that Indianapolis built the whole team around Manning and his unique talents. The defensive scheme (a Cover-2 variation with heavy pressure) is specifically designed to play with a lead. After all, Manning and the offense was a virtual lock for 25-30 points each week. Suddenly, the team is struggling to put up 10. The defense couldn't play their game either. >> The Colts have been a Super Bowl contender for the last 10+ years. They are a veteran team used to winning and playing long into January. When the season spiraled out of control, it's clear that those veterans quit on the season. Simply put, I don't think Polian can be blamed here. First of all, I don't believe the team is anywhere near as bad as they looked this season. They still have a lot of talent. Also consider that Polian hasn't had a top draft pick in well over a decade. That limits the ability to restock a team with impact players. His cap room is tied up in veteran stars (Manning, Wayne, Saturday, Clark, Freeney, Mathis), which limits his ability to grab talent in free agency.

This. Somebody will be willing to make the trade (especially with the rookie salary cap in place now). The only thing that keeps Luck from going #1 is a freak accident between now and April.

Here are a couple possible reasons: 1) More talented teams (like the Patriots) come into the game taking us lightly. We get up by a few points. By the time the 2nd-3rd quarter hit, they start taking us seriously and we just can't hang anymore. 2) Fitzpatrick is horribly inconsistent. He's good for a couple nice throws every week. He's also sure to throw quite a few bad ones. Games like yesterday, he jam-packed all his good-accurate throws into the first three drives. The rest of the game, he looked like crap. 3) Our coaches only have a few tricks up their sleeves. Other teams adjust to what we are doing, and we can't respond.

I don't think letting Donte Whitner go was a mistake. George Wilson was a better player and deserved to start. I don't think getting voted to the Pro Bowl changes that. But at the same time, I think it's interesting to see all these ex-Bills finding success elsewhere. Donte Whitner makes the Pro Bowl for San Francisco Aaron Maybin is racking up sacks for the Jets Marshawn Lynch has over 1,000 yards rushing and 12 touchdowns for Seattle Jason Peters is having an incredible year for Philadelphia Poz has continued to play well in Jacksonville A lot of people have said that coaching is a huge problem in Buffalo. Failing to maximize talent is a strong example of that.

In some ways, yes. In other ways, no. Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey have been a mixed bag. There are some things they have done right. There are a lot of mistakes they have made. The 2012 offseason will be key. Can they admit and correct their mistakes? Or will they make new ones? For example: >> Hiring George Edwards as defensive coordinator was a horrible mistake. Will he be fired, or will Nix/Gailey stick with him? If he is canned, who will be his replacement? >> Switching to the 3-4/Hybrid was stupid. The Bills best players (Kyle Williams, Marcell Dareus) are best suited for the 4-3. Player talent should dictate the system - not the other way around. Do the Bills maximize their defensive talent, or do they keep trying to play people out of position? >> The 2010 draft looks like it will be a complete bust. There is a chance that we don't get a single long-term starter from that group. The 2011 draft was much better. Dareus should be a great one. Williams and Sheppherd should be good starters. Hairston and Searcy could start and should be good depth. Which one will 2012 look like? >> This team has a tendancy to create holes instead of filling them. Will they re-sign Steve Johnson? Or will he be the latest veteran groomed and dumped by the Bills front office.

I sadly agree. I'm one that REALLY wanted us to draft a quarterback. But without Matt Barkley (and there is still a chance that Robert Griffin III and Landry Jones decide to stay in school), the quality of prospects goes down significantly. We will probably have a shot at Landry Jones. He has lots of physical talent, but will be a real project for someone. Very high bust potential.

Exactly. What I gather from the thread originator's (corey g) argument, he is worried that we will "ruin" a potential franchise quarterback by bringing him to a bad team. I don't buy this and never have. If a quarterback is good enough, he will raise the level of the players around him. Not the other way around. David Carr is the most common example that people bring up when they argue against throwing a quarterback into the fire immediately. They say that he got sacked so much that he became shell-shocked and never recovered. Personally, I just don't think that Carr was very good - and I think he was going to be a disappointment no matter what situation he was brought into. He's never been more than a decent NFL backup. All the "experts" that touted him as great are just looking for excuses to why they were wrong.

Our first priority should be quarterback. But if the top 3-4 (Luck, Barkley, Griffin, Jones) are gone, I have no problem with going for the top offensive tackle.

Here's more proof to my point. Let's take some of the top guys at each position. I've bolded the players with Super Bowl titles. Top Quarterbacks Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning With exception of Rivers, every single one of these guys has won at least one Super Bowl. Most have their teams in the playoffs on an almost yearly basis. Top Running Backs Adrian Peterson, Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Arian Foster, Maurice Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Jamaal Charles, Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, LeSean McCoy, Fred Jackson Even when I look at more than TEN!!!! of the top running backs, I can't find even one Super Bowl title. Most of the guys on this list have never even PLAYED in a playoff game, much less sniffed a championship. What exactly has having Peterson done for Minnesota? Top Wide Receivers Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, Hakeem Nicks, Wes Welker, Roddy White, Miles Austin, Greg Jennings, Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne I had to really stretch the list to find some guys with rings (Jennings, Wayne). Most of the top guys have never gotten close. The Texans are going to their first playoff game this year, and that was with Johnson sidelined most of the season. Calvin Johnson has never even been to the playoffs. Even the Patriots lost their only appearance since signing Welker. Top Offensive Linemen: Tackles: Jake Long, Joe Thomas, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jordan Gross, Ryan Clady Guards/Centers: Logan Mankins, Nick Mangold, Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, Ryan Kalil, Eric Wood, Kris Dielman, Chris Snee I'm as big a supporter of focusing on the line as anyone, but how many titles have Jake Long or Joe Thomas brought to Miami and Cleveland? How about playoff appearances? You can have a great blindside protector, but it means nothing if you don't have a good quarterback to protect. Even when you factor in the great lines of New England and New Orleans, this list is pretty bare of championships. Defensive Linemen Ends: Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Justin Tuck, Mario Williams, Trent Cole, John Abraham, Darnell Dockett, Osi Umenyura, Justin Smith Tackles: Jay Ratliff, Haloti Ngata, Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Kevin Williams, Ndamukong Suh, Kyle Williams They say that it all comes down to the big guys up front. But I listed almost 20 of the games top defensive linemen, and only five have managed Super Bowl wins. Linebackers Patrick Willis, James Harrison, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Demarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, Brian Orakpo, Lamar Woodley, Jerod Mayo, Tamba Hali, Jon Beason, Terrell Suggs The best overall linebacker in football (Willis) will see his first playoff game this year. The best pass rusher (Ware) of the group has only been there a couple times. We've got a couple Steelers (Harrison, Woodley), Lewis and Matthews with titles, but that is it. Defensive Backs: Cornerbacks: Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Asomugha, Charles Woodson, Champ Bailey, Asante Samuel, Deangelo Hall Safeties: Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Adrian Wilson, Eric Berry Asomugha, considered by many to be the best shutdown corner in football, has never been to the playoffs.

No team is going to win the championship completely on the back of one player. There is no doubt about that. And there is no doubt in my mind that even if the Bills draft a future Hall of Fame quarterback, they still need massive upgrades all over the team to become a legitimate contender. But history has proven time and time again, that championship teams demand greatness at the quarterback position. What does it tell you when 3 out of every 4 Super Bowl winning quarterbacks is in the NFL Hall of Fame (or will be someday)? It tells me that when it comes to quarterback - good usually isn't good enough. At a position that demands GREATNESS...the Bills settle for mediocrity. We can keep building the team everywhere else - adding linemen and receivers and defensive backs and linebackers - which is great... But until we get a GREAT player under center, the odds of us ever building a championship team are very very slim. Anyone that says otherwise is paying attention to the very few exceptions (Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien) rather than the overwhleming majority of the time.

I don't think anyone believes that drafting a QB will immediately solve all of our problems. OF COURSE, there will have to be a very good team constructed around that person to become a legitimate playoff/Super Bowl contender. Even the best quarterbacks of all time needed help: Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, etc., etc. But here are the facts. YOU NEED A GOOD OR GREAT QUARTERBACK TO WIN CONSISTENTLY IN THE NFL. Take a look at the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks through history: Bart Starr (2), Joe Namath, Len Dawson, Johnny Unitas, Roger Staubach (2), Bob Griese (2), Terry Bradshaw (4), Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett (2), Joe Montana (4), Joe Thiesmann, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Troy Aikman (3), Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway (2), Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady (3), Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger (2), Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers Through 45 Super Bowls, a whopping 23 of them (51 percent) have been won by a current Hall of Fame quarterback. When you throw in future Hall of Famers like Favre, Warner, Brady and Manning, that number jumps to 29 (64 percent). And when you consider that Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are definite possibilities, that number goes up to 33 (73 percent). So how about the other 12 Super Bowls that were not won by Hall of Famers? For starters, Plunkett is the ONLY guy on the list that won it more than once. And people have been arguing for years that Plunkett and Stabler both belong in the Hall of Fame. Even if they don't deserve that great honor, both were very good quarterbacks for their era. So were Thiesmann and Simms (both were two time Pro Bowlers during their careers). And Eli Manning is one of today's top quarterbacks. In my estimation, that only leaves SIX quarterbacks in 45 years that have won a Super Bowl without being one of the league's best passers. Three of them (McMahon, Dilfer and B.Johnson) did not just have GOOD defenses supporting them. They had arguably the BEST DEFENSES OF ALL TIME carrying them (1984 Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs). Doug Williams and Rypien both played for Joe Gibbs-led Redskins, which were stacked at every position - especially offensive line and defense. Hostetler (as we all painfully remember) was actually the backup quarterback to Simms - so the Giants technically didn't ride him through their whole Super Bowl season.

A lot depends on whether we lose out. We might not have to trade up. If we finish the season 5-11, I expect us to draft around #5-7. If we finish 6-10 or 7-9, we are probably looking at #15-20. After the Colts take Luck, we could have a legitimate shot at Matt Barkely, RGIII or even Landry Jones. The Vikings and Rams will draft before us, but will not be taking a quarterback. Neither will Philadelphia, Tampa Bay or Carolina. And I still have my doubts about Jacksonville going for a first round quarterback two years in a row. That means we are competing with Miami (4-9), Cleveland (4-9), Washington (4-9) and Kansas City (5-8) over the three remaining QBs.

This is what makes me mad when fans comment about Steve Johnson (or Lee Evans for that matter). What makes a receiver a #1 or a #2? Some receivers are fast. Some are big and tall. Some are good route runners. Some are small and shifty. Why do we try to determine a receiver's worth based on some arbitrary number that doesn't mean anything? Why can't we just recognize that a player has talent - and if we let that talent leave without replacing him with someone better - we are getting WORSE as a team. A lot of Bills fans determined that Lee Evans wasn't a #1 receiver, because he was one dimensional as a deep threat. Never mind that he was one of the best deep threats in the game. Evans was the same kind of receiver as someone like Mike Wallace, Desean Jackson or Greg Jennings. He wasn't the kind of guy that put up 1,000 yards and 10 touchdowns every season. But he still had value by stretching defenses and opening up passing lanes underneath. And... as it turns out, our offense has really missed having a deep threat on the field. Now, for Steve Johnson. We all know that he's not in the talent level of someone like Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. But he is one of the best route runners in the game, and has been the only receiver in the NFL this year to get the best of Darrelle Revis (who we happen to play twice a year). Johnson is only in his second year as a starter and there is every reason to believe that he will get better (especially if the Bills can add a more accurate QB). If we let him go, that leaves us four options: 1) Replace him with someone currently on the roster like David Nelson or Naaman Roosevelt. This would make our offense significantly worse. 2) Replace him with a top free agent receiver like Dwayne Bowe, Vincent Jackson or Marques Colston. These guys will probably cost more than Johnson, so why not just keep Stevie? 3) Replace him with a lower free agent receiver like Robert Meachem or Pierre Garcon. This also would make our offense significantly worse. 4) Replace him with a draft pick. A rookie (even someone like Justin Blackmon) would probably take 2-3 years to develop, assuming he doesn't completely bust. That is just in time for them to hit free agency too and keep the endless cycle turning.

I don't see him as much of an upgrade. Our number one priority should be upgrading the quarterback position. That will make all the receivers better. Second, we need to re-sign Steve Johnson. Third, we should go after an elite option on the other side. Possibly someone like Dwayne Bowe in free agency (assuming KC lets him go).

I figured that Steve Johnson was gone after the Jets fiasco. After that game, Buffalo's front office guys had all their excuses lined up on why he wasn't worth a big contract. He drops passes. He doesn't have his head in the game. Etc, etc.... I'm fully expecting the Bills to publicly announce after the season that they "tried" to give Johnson a fair offer, then let him test free agency - where he will promptly sign with someone else. Smart fans will realize that we just let one of the league's top 15-20 receivers walk. There will also be morons who will support the Bills every move, saying idiotic crap like "he's not a #1 receiver" and "he doesn't have high character." Our starting receivers next year will then be David Nelson and Donald Jones.

Dareus is the only one who looks like he could be special. The rest of these guys look average/mediocre. Which unfortunately, does make it our best draft class in about 10 years.

Exactly. I've always been a big person on "SUPPORTING" the team no matter what. Lately, I've come to realize that I'm supporting nothing more than the name BUFFALO BILLS. > Am I supporting the ownership? They could care less about the fans and people of Buffalo. Their concern is the bottom line, not fielding a winner. Ralph Wilson has been laughing all the way to the bank for 50 years and we continue to show up a the stadium for his pathetic product. > Am I supporting the NFL? They don't care about the fans and hate that a team is still in Buffalo. Most of these billionaire owners would approve a move in 2 seconds flat if it meant adding more money to their pockets. > Am I supporting the players? Again, these players are all about the money too. They don't care about the Buffalo community. When free agency hits, most of these guys promise to be on the first bus out of town (unless of course we pay them a massive contract). Every year I buy NFL Sunday Ticket to watch the Bills games. I buy merchandise and occasionally fly to Buffalo to see a home game. So basically, all this SUPPORT is going to people that are taking advantage of me for my money.