sherpa
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Posts posted by sherpa
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1 hour ago, dpberr said:
If the crew gets reprimanded for anything in this particular situation, it's going to be that detail.
Won't happen.
Attempting to open a door in flight is an attempt to take down the airplane.
Any force, including lethal, is authorized.
Aside, flight attendants go through recurrent training on a regular basis, and are trained in this type of thing, thus their actions.
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7 minutes ago, Limeaid said:
Duct tape has so many uses.
See Apollo 13.
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I always wonder when, if ever, people will understand that you cannot open a door in flight.
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39 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:
So the logic I gather...
In Cuba , communist socialism is bad because it's not elected
In China, communist socialism is good because they have elections?
Bad "gather."
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9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:
Venezuela is a dictatorship you idiot
I am pleased that you call me an idiot.
I have spent many, many of days in Venezuela and watched what has happened first hand.
I am well aware of their political system.
I am well aware of Jimmy Carter going down there to judge their elections, elections that were "democratically" conducted, as he endorsed them.
Otherwise, he would not have gone.
Want to tell Jimmy that it is not a "democracy?"
He went down there to endorse a dictatorship?
I would prefer to not insult posters here, but you sir, are absolutely ignorant.
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4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:
That's a dictatorship, too. Lol
You can "LOL" all you want, but it is a democratically elected government.
Total failure, as they always are.
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1 hour ago, Tiberius said:
Cuba does not have democracy. Socialism imposed by dictators is different than the people elected a government and making decisions.
So I guess that means that Venezuela is your model?
Good Lord.. the gross, abject acknowledgement on the failure of socialist economic institutions is astounding.
How many generations need to pay that price?
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2 hours ago, B-Man said:
Page #1 of this thread back in 2015.
"What do you mean it's only the beginning ? this is just about taking down Confederate statues, you're crazy"
The city’s remaining contested statue was torn from its pedestal Saturday once Charlottesville’s City Council voted unanimously to take down the statue of Meriwether Lewis, William Clark, and Sacagawea.
“The statue of Lewis, Clark and Sacagawea departed the intersection where it has stood since 1919 at around 2:45 p.m. aboard a flatbed truck,” the Daily Progress reported, adding the removal took approximately an hour and a half.
This is the single most stupid thing I've seen the idiotic Charlottesville City Council do in the 22 years I've lived here.
I drive by that thing nearly every day.
The statue was a tribute to the Lewis and Clark Expedition, conceived and brought about by Thomas Jefferson, a local, and including William Clark, also a local.
Sacagawea was depicted in a manner showing her doing her tracking thing. It was in no way "demeaning."
An idiotic waste of money.
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15 hours ago, Just Jack said:
Story time. Back in the fall of 2007 the ex and I were on a flight to China with a tour group. JFK-Beijing, direct flight, no stops on Air China. 3pm was our listed departure time. Everything seems to be going smoothly, we get in line for take off. I have a window seat and I happened to notice we were getting out of line. Sure enough, captain announces there's a mechanical issue, so they take us back to a gate, but don't let us off while they fix it. Two hours later, we leave the gate, get back in line. Few minutes later, I see us getting back out of line. Captain announces, they found another issue. But this time we don't go to a gate, they take us somewhere on the tarmac. It was then people started wondering about the PBOR. Turns out it was being discussed, but not yet official. So we were stuck on board as long as they wanted to keep us there. Two hours later, plane is fixed again. Except, because the crew gave us food and drinks, we now had to wait for catering to come and replenish the plane. So another two hour wait, before we could leave. Finally at 9pm, we take off for our 14 hour flight. It's the only time I've been on a plane where the passengers clapped on take off.
The pax bill of rights would not apply to Air China anyway.
Per your post, I am shocked that the flight operated.
Given the delays you mentioned US regulations would have made the flight illegal regarding cockpit crew duty time.
What the passenger bill of rights has done is result in multiple more cancelations.
When the forecast is indicating there will probably be huge delays, they simply cancel.
This is most especially done when it looks like deicing will be involved.
Deicing is a very time consuming and labor intensive operation.
My favorite story of a crazy delay occurred in July of 2013.
I was going from JFK to Tokyo, 777.
Left the gate on time late in the evening. When number two for takeoff, was told the airport was shutting down for two hours.
A highly publicized solar airplane was going to land at JFK, and they were shutting down all airspace as this 25 mph airplane came in.
The original agreement that got them permission said they had to land at 3am. At 3am the fiasco would have been avoided.
They claimed they had a tear in a wing and needed to land at about 11pm.
I never believed it and it made no sense.
Anyway, there are a bunch of international departures in line.
Many European carriers do not provide "augmented" crews, (meaning one extra guy), for trips to western European destination, like London City Airport or Paris, since they are not over the eight hour limit requiring an extra guy.
Still, you can't go over eight hours, son one by one about five of them tell ground they are cancelling and going back to gates.
As this event was unannounced by anyone, airplanes trying to get into LaGuardia are holding and starting to run out of fuel.
Three separate domestic flights declare fuel emergencies on land at JFK.
A total idiotic near disaster.
Anyway this piece of trash lands and we get airborne two hours late.
Of course arriving that late in Tokyo, public transportation is shut down, so the passengers had to deal with that.
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3 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:
I defer to folks with expertise on these issues for a variety of reasons.
An odd habit if you consider various posts in this thread.
By the way, for the individual who claimed that these folks were "hiding behind the rules," that is a grossly absurd conclusion.
The "rules" happen to be the law and the penalties are massive. If breaking those rules intentionally, it can lead to certificate action and criminal charges.
Further, there is no hiding. Data link messages are sent and an undeniable electronic track is created on all these things.
One example.
A few years ago Congress passed what was called the "Passenger Bill of Rights."
It was passed to penalize carriers for extended delays without deplaning.
I was a 777 captain. I once computed that if I ever broke that time limit, with all the passengers we carried, if they got the max amount, it would have been far cheaper to simply blow all the slides and evacuate the airplane.
Know what the penalty is for allowing an intoxicated passenger on the airplane?
$20,000.
Coincidentally, the Mrs. and I have to enter that hellish madness known as US civil aviation this afternoon to visit our daughter and her husband.
I hope I make it.
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Probably should have added this on the end of my previous post, but doing what has been suggested by people who don't know the situation may not have been possible.
I'm not interested enough to find out, but it is somewhat likely that these message board suggestions were not an option at all.
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One of Van's best calls was when Calvin Murphy hung 68 on Syracuse when he did the Niagara games.
What are the chances that hair is natural, untreated Van Miller hair?
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By simply reading the media reports of this, you have absolutely no idea what accommodations the inconvenienced legally compliant passengers were provided, either by hotel and meal vouchers and other probable "awards" to lesson the inconvenience. They don't get published unless the passenger reveals them.
And again, keeping a passenger's bags onboard who has been taken off a flight for non compliance with regulations the fed has imposed is an idiotic, illegal and potentially criminal action.
I guarantee you that if I did that intentionally the FAA would have been after my license as soon as they found out.
Same thing with other cargo issues the carrier agrees to abide by in compliance with FAA and DEA directives. It can get complicated, and things in the cargo compartment are a really serious issue.
There are situations where it is permissible, and I'm not going to go into them anymore than I'm going to discuss other issues that frequently arise that have years of experienced professional and legal guidance governing those issues and informing those protocols. Medical diverts would be an example.
Forming and expressing an opinion rife with hostility regarding a situation one knows very little about is a bad habit.
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Wrong on so many levels.
Not going to touch the above, with the exception of pointing out that they absolutely do not profit from a delay.
Pure nonsense.
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41 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
I'd just like to point out that your highlighted sentences provide the desired information.
I have had it happen to friends of mine who were involuntarily bumped ("denied carriage") from a plane, that their luggage went to the destination without them. Apparently that is not "instantaneous corporate suicide". I'm pretty sure I've also read stories of passengers who were removed for what the airline considered "required by safety, security, or health reasons, or due to the passenger’s unlawful behavior" where they were left baggageless because their baggage didn't come off the flight, and those airlines are still flying. So apparently that was not "instantaneous corporate suicide" either.
There must be some very fine lines in the denial of carriage rules, or else the operating certificate is a bit harder to lose than you suggest.
I would also bet that what sound like HS or college kids going off to party, were not likely paying extra for checked luggage and had what they needed in carry-on bags.
And I would like to point out that you don't know the regulations or protocols.
What I "suggest" is what I know, and breaking those rules is corporate suicide.
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2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
If the teens aren't going to hotels anyway, leave their bags on the plane, and fly the bags back in the am?
This is an example of why people's views on message boards, when commenting on things they are unfamiliar with, should be completely disregarded, and I mean no personal offense.
Doing what you suggest would result in an airline losing its operating certificate.
In plain English, instantaneous corporate suicide.
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Lots of issues here, and lots of corporate experience that industry had in dealing with this type of thing, and paying large sums defending their actions.
First, he can't simply disembark and airplane and re-board it.
There are security issues that I'm not going to go into in detail, but essentially, if you are denied, your checked bag is denied.
Not hard to connect the dots on why, but running a bag in the cargo compartment and removing it takes time.
Running, potentially, thirty of them would take a long time.
Second, when you attempt to decide which kids are the problem, you open yourself up to claims from those who will claim they weren't, which would probably be most or all of them. There is no time or legal apparatus to handle this at departure time when a number of clocks are ticking, unknown to passengers or readers of message boards.
Ergo, you get into a situation that is unsolvable in the time frame essential to solve it.
Responding to another post, police have jurisdictions. You can't call a department of your choice and have them handle an airport situation.
Without arresting them, requiring cause, you can't hold them.
Providing that due cause would require witness testimony.
None of that is going to happen in the window of an airline departure.
The best solution is what was chosen.
I'm sure these kids viewed the results of their actions as counterproductive to their Bahama vacation.
The airline paid for hotel and meals for the other passengers.
Sucks being part of a culture that has these miscreants, but is is what it is.
Further, I really doubt any rational human being would view punks as "heroes to emulate," and I think upcoming court cases and fines are going to dissuade such "heroes."
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12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
So I guess I'm not clear on why they couldn't unboard the plane for some reason (clean-up?), then reboard everyone who was not acting up and take off?
I "get it" that crew hours, landing slots at the destination, departure controls due to weather etc etc may have been involved. Just sort of sounds like if the concern is "legal quagmire", dumping a bunch of teens at the airport overnight is a bit of a quagmire anyway.
You can't simply get them off and get the others on.
There are security issues and that takes time and manpower.
Again, there was a lot of off schedule stuff there because of severe storms earlier, so the manpower was undoubtedly stressed, limiting who could handle the issue.
Regarding the issue of them staying at the airport, that was the only possible solution and although it wasn't mentioned, I guarantee that personnel were in place to watch the situation closely and protect against any other incident.
It is simply the best solution. Other proposals would have been far more risky.
Those kids were probably provided blankets, pillows and supervision.
27 minutes ago, Doc said:Aren't the airlines allowed to kick-off anyone they want, if they're not following their rules?
Yep.
If it would have been one two or maybe a few more, that's what would have happened.
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1 hour ago, Doc said:
How? Either you cancel the flight or kick these morons off of it, they're going to have to call mommy and/or daddy to get them anyway.
The airline is not a law enforcement organization.
Are they supposed to sit everyone down and have an illegal hearing?
Airport cops are not staffed enough to handle this either. Nor do they want to.
Thirty kids to handle and decide who stays and who goes. Way too much work and way too much time and would undoubtedly result in lawsuits.
Are they to take statements from the other passengers?
"Mommy and Daddy" are not going to come from Boston to Charlotte to pick them up, so do you fly them back to Boston?
Not likely, and the lawyers would be overwhelming, because they'd all be individual cases.
It would be a legal quagmire.
What about the bags?
How long would that take to get sorted out?
How many people?
Charlotte had a very rough weather day that day. The airplane had already been swapped out once and that certainly took some time.
How about crew duty time limitations?
Probably not an issue, but how about destination curfew issues including customs/immigration and the current presence of Covid screeners?
Regarding a previous post about "teaching them a lesson," that is hardly the airlines' task.
The point is that it is much more complicated than it was presented in the very limited story published.
It's unfortunate that those not involved had to wait until the next morning, but when a group of idiots behaves like this is has effects on others.
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5 hours ago, Limeaid said:
None of them were charged.
I cannot not figure out (and surprised no one asked airline) why they did not just leave those who refused to wear masks at airport.
Because it's a lot more complicated than that.
One, two or three passengers, not that big of a deal.
Thirty, and minors is a big deal and presents a very complicated issue that would require a lot of people and a lot of time to sort out.
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Simpson and Barry Sanders were the only running backs I ever saw that if you watched the body language of singular open field tackers, you could see they knew they were already beat.
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1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:
"What is brisket?"????
WTF is going on down there??
Seriously?
Ever been to Texas?
Ever eaten BBQ?
I slow cook it least six times a year.
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Simply a brilliant document.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
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9 hours ago, Gene1973 said:
What the NAVY is seeing is not a craft, but plasma created by a min of 3 coincident lasers creating plasma balls that show up on radar. The fast speeds and accelerations are possible with no sound and no sonic booms. Russia and China are laughing their asses off at the clueless Pentagon.
The Navy is well aware of laser caused plasma images in the IR spectrum.
They've been working on it for ten years as a missile decoy system.
In fact, they have a patent on the technology.
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Woman ducted tape to seat on American Airlines flight. Attacked flight attendants and tried to open the door.
in Off the Wall
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No you can't.
It would take over 2000 pounds of strength to open one.