Donald Duck
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Watch the link provided on page 1. Stop it at 46-47 seconds into the video. First contact is made by his helment on Maclin's chin with his head down. It was a dirty hit.
These guys are moving at a very high speed Scraps,ever think maybe the offensive players movements/reactions have something to do with it, takes two to tango, the D can't read minds. why is a player going to intentionally cost his team 15 yards, Or cost himself thousands of dollars. Plus, Going helmet to helmet does not discriminate from one person to the other as far as concussions go, it could knock them both out of commission.
It shouldn't be a penalty to begin with unless you want to start penalizing the Offense for doing the same thing, but regardless, it was not an intentional helmet to helmet hit in my opinion
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Your comparisons to diving are irrelevant. If you want to convince people of your POV, make relevant comparisons and site some applicable stats.
You do know that jumping 50 ft into water is not like hitting concrete don't you? You do know that this is an exaggeration to make people understand that it is not harmless, right? I mean if you were given a choice between falling 50 feet into a pool of water or onto a block of concrete, you wouldn't say "makes no difference" right?
Seriously? Which injuries are you talking about? What is more serious than paralysis?
I admit I'm reaching for straws on the high diving, its not a good comparison
As I said in a previous post, Kevin Everett's injury had nothing to do with improper tackling techniques. One of my points however is why should the defense get penalized for something offensive players continue to do, which is lead with their head.
I really hope Fig never coaches in a youth league.
If I did Dorkington, I would design and develop the helmet protection I spoke of in my original post along with the swivel/flex neck brace that connects the helmet to the shoulder pads and make it mandatory for my players to wear.(with the leagues permission) Plus teach them proper tackling techniques and anything else I could do to protect the players.
I'm not disputing some of the already known facts and ways to help prevent serious injury, but its not enough.
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A simple "yes" would suffice.
Yes Shrader, I can be very hard headed sometimes...
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Divers don't look up (or down I suppose) because that would create a bigger splash. It has absolutely nothing to do with any potential injury.
And as for the latest addition to this thread, I really have to ask. Are you a troll or are you really this dense?
I like to debate things and calling me a troll for doing so is brilliant buddy, nothing better to say, attack the poster, I know how it goes,
Good Lord, common sense would tell you bigger splash means harder impact then preferred has occurred somewhere on the divers head or body.
This thread was started in an effort to discuss ways to protect players from helmet to helmet collisions. I admit proper tackling techniques would be one of them. I also admitted to DrDare from a medical standpoint lowering your head increases the chance of severe spinal column injury. I respect the Docs opinion and have no argument that what he says is true. Its common knowledge and nothing new to me.
With that being said I'm damn sure not going to admit proper tackling techniques or keeping your head up is going to stop all severe spinal chord injuries from happening in the game of football because its simply not true.
So don't call me dense because I'm searching for a solution to a problem that is life threatening/ altering to athletes we know and love.
You don't like my thread, don't post on it...
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Do yourself a favor and delete this thread. You are digging yourself to China.
Let me repeat this,
Marc Buoniconti: the new rules are going to put officials in a tough position.
"There are going to be other instances where people are having head to head contact and it's not intentional," Buoniconti said. "It's hard to play football and not hit your head, it's nearly impossible."
So a statement from a player that has actually suffered the injury isn't good enough for you...
Nice quote. What does it have to do with anything? How does that support your "lower your head to avoid neck injury, I don't care what science and medicine say" agenda? There will be helmet to helmet contact even while attempting clean hits, but its more likely to be glancing than when a player leads with the helmet intentionally.
See Brandon Merriweather or Dunta Robinson for an example of launching yourself head first into the ball carrier. Their arms are at their sides, its obvious they aren't even trying to lay a clean hit or tackle. Thats what the NFL is trying to remove. How anyone can argue the contrary is just baffling.
You can't prevent murder, should that be decriminalized and we all just wear bullet proof shirts?
I did not say to lower your head anywhere on this thread, but players damn sure do it and it will never change
How about watching some of the RB's in the NFL and see how many times there head is lowered when making contact with the defensive players.
It happens all the time
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Yes, not absorbing helmet-to-helmet hits will benefit the offense. What don't you understand about that? What don't you understand about the link I provided for you regarding keeping your head up? Why won't you just admit that you're totally wrong.
As soon as a linebacker is a fluid that allows for total displacement and you can lessen the collision by disrupting a tackler's surface tension, then you're diving analogy won't be the dumbest thing I've read this month. And I read Sullivan and Jamele Hill.
I'm damn sure not totally wrong in saying you are not going to get every player on the football field to get there head up on impact and to suggest so is stupidity.
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Yes, not absorbing helmet-to-helmet hits will benefit the offense. What don't you understand about that? What don't you understand about the link I provided for you regarding keeping your head up? Why won't you just admit that you're totally wrong.
As soon as a linebacker is a fluid that allows for total displacement and you can lessen the collision by disrupting a tackler's surface tension, then you're diving analogy won't be the dumbest thing I've read this month. And I read Sullivan and Jamele Hill.
Marc Buoniconti: the new rules are going to put officials in a tough position.
"There are going to be other instances where people are having head to head contact and it's not intentional," Buoniconti said. "It's hard to play football and not hit your head, it's nearly impossible."
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If Dunta Robinson had put his hands and arms forward, he probably would not have been flagged. He dropped his head forward and led with his head. Same as Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti, and they all ended up with broken necks.
Continuing to compare diving to football is stupid beyond belief.
Do you have a point here besides calling my comparison stupid?
High diving is another high impact sport, at 50 ft the water is like hitting concrete, at 100 it could kill you.
You guys are making a huge deal out of using proper tackling techniques and it had nothing to do with half the serious neck injuries that have occurred in the game of football.
So what your saying is proper tackling techniques will help the Offense now also,
talk about stupid...
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Bad comparison. If I dive into the water I bring my hands above my head and my hands break the impact with the water.
Yes, body position is an issue but that is part of the point of tilting your head back. Tilt your head back and your back will arch. You will make more contact with your shoulder pads or sternum and distribute the force better. Tilt your head forward and the entire force will go down you spinal column.
God did not intend for you to run at full speed head first into someone weighing 200+ pounds who is running at full speed in the opposite direction. God did not design our bodies for football.
That all works good for relatively small object like a nut, bolt or wrench falling from some height but if you drop a 200+ pound anvil onto someones head from a couple of stories high, he will die, hard hat or not.
Just like players put their forearms out in front of them to lessen impact, but you don't see divers tilting there head up to protect themselves from spinal injury do you.
Never said to tilt your head forward, I said to leave your head in its normal position.
No God did not intend for us to do some of the things we do and is why protection devices are created for when we do them.
No argument on the 200 lbs falling on you from above...dead
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We're not talking about "most people", we're talking about FOOTBALL PLAYERS. Who are trained and conditioned to do so.
Im serious when I say to go get some pads on and try it. It only takes ONE TIME of hitting with your head down before you will never do it again. Drop your face, hit with the top of your head, and then PRAY that the numbness in your arm goes away and that you havent done permanent damage.
This is no longer a debate, as you are still refusing to even read or acknowledge what others (with real life experience) tell you. I dont even think youd listen if it was Dave Wannstache himself posting this. And I dont understand why you are being so stubborn when you obviously dont have any experience in the matter.
Hitting with the top of the helmet needs to be a very punishable offense in the NFL. It is not changing how the game is played, since it was never supposed to be played like that to begin with.
I gotta seriously tap out now before I end up interweb-angry at you.
hehe, from a medical standpoint I'm not totally disagreeing with you Doc, but you are asking to much from an athlete in my opinion to think proper tackling techniques are ever going to solve the problem of helmets impacting helmets at a high velocity on a football field. As I said in a previous post, DB's are looking to dislodge the football with vicious hits(not tackle) and If you can slam into them as an offensive player head first then the defensive player should be able to do the same. Or Start calling a penalty both ways.
Better to increase protection where needed on the head and neck or take the helmets off completely.
Note: The added padding on the top of the helmet I'm suggesting/stripes down the center(original post) would also decrease impact on the spinal column in my opinion, especially in conjunction with a neck brace which should become mandatory for all players
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The premise that we have been discussing is based in a FOOTBALL-centric discussion. You're the one hopping off topic and bringing up "diving into a pool".
And "the way God intended it" "Heads up on a construction site"?!?!?Cmon dude. Youre really reaching and the scenarios arent even comparable. Just stop already.
Or better yet, go get some football pads on and try it yourself. Not sure how many more people need to tell you how it actually is before you start believing it...
We automatically protect our face regardless of wearing a face mask because the top and back of your head is a hell of a lot more durable then your face. Maybe you can tell yourself Doc that in a split second by bringing your head up you will have less chance of spinal injury, but most people are going to react naturally and protect their face in my opinion.
We're not robots...
Please Fig, are you saying it's easier to run full speed with your head pointed at the ground? Give it a try and let me know how it works out.
Actually just the opposite and that's my point ball of Beer, you keep your head positioned normal, not turned up.
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You have that completely backwards. If you spear someone, there is nothing to transfer the force of that impact to your shoulder pads. The force is completely transferred by the vertabrae in your neck causing compression fractures. This is what happened to Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti. Keeping your head up will allow more contact with your padding and more distribution of the force.
Well it isn't particularly smart for a running back to do that but they are primarily trying to get their pads lower, to get more leverage and get more yardage. They aren't trying to hurt someone.
While it may not be a natural reaction to lift your head and smash your face into an oncoming obstacle, running into an obstacle as fast and hard as you can is not natural either.
Dive into the water from a high elevation and see what happens If you bring your head up and look at the water when you hit. This premise that keeping your head up is safer depends on certain variables like how your body is positioned on impact. Standing/running upright is one thing, leaning forward on the run is another.
How is your head any safer then the way God intended it, which is sitting straight on your body. I've worked a lot of construction and when someone says heads up from above you do not bring your head up to look, you let your hardhat take the brunt of the force squarely on the top or you will get injured or killed.
again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head and protect the face on high impact.
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Where did he imply otherwise? Can it happen in both situations? Sure. It's just significantly more likely with your head down. I can die if I hit a tree in my car going 30mph wearing my seatbelt.I'm way more likely to die hitting the same tree at 100mph not wearing my seatbelt. The same premise applies here. You're not going to eliminate all injuries, but by taking simple, reasonable preventative measures you greatly reduce the risk.
Death from head injury occurs frequently because of the whiplash effect it has on your brain inside the head. Same way shaking a baby hard can cause severe injury.
Its all good.
Any injury can happen anytime. The point is, when you tackle properly, you GREATLY reduce the chance.
It's a violent, high speed, contact sport. That is the exact reason why they need to curb improper technique which is only serving to INCREASE the risk of injury.
Head up, both D and O players have a slight chance of being injured. Head down, much more likely for spinal injuries, concussions, etc. to both players.
not really though. when you spend years learning to tackle with your head up, you trust your facemask and equipment. It's natural for an untrained person with no helmet on, sure. But these guys who are pros know better by now. I knew better before I got to high school. It's not that big of a deal to lead with your face.
Robinson didnt just make Maclin touch the burner, he threw the whole stove at him.
appreciate the insight Doc
Kinda feels like we already have been, hahaha. JK.But this thread HAS gotten me pumped to hit something. Too much talk, and too much reminiscing about my playing days. Wish I had a tackling dummy here, or someone to run some hitting drills with!
hehe
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Those people are idiots. That's all I can say about that.
If you want to believe them, fine. But they are technically, and medically incorrect.
It's not a matter of opinion, its a matter of technique fact and anatomical/medical fact.
No response you come up with is going to make me unlearn what I spent 20 years learning and experiencing first hand.
I tried to offer some insight, but it doesnt seem to be what you want to hear, so...
Go Bills!!
Just because I'm still debating the issue doesn't mean I'm not absorbing/respecting your opinion Doc, but on the other hand neck injuries can occur in both instances and for you to imply otherwise is incorrect.
And it's a natural reaction to test out a hot surface with the palm of your hand or finger tips. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If you educate people on the right ways to approach a scenario, they are far more likely to ignore those impulses and actually do what is far more safe. At one point, just like you, I assumed it would be safer to take a collision with the top of my head. Luckily that misconception was taught out of me in my early teens.
ducking ones head is a natural reaction vs smashing into something face first.
The difference here is players are going to touch/ get burned on the hot burner because it just goes with the territory.
There are no actual percentages(that I'm aware of) to differentiate between injuries occurring with the head up or injuries to the neck that occur with the head down. More injuries are occurring with the head down in the NFL and other sports because the head is down more often then not on high impact collisions.
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Perfectly explained.
And until you've played a contact sport and taken a hit with your head down, and get that Arm Stinger, you just dont know.
Im not sure what youre arguing anymore, so Im going to say "Good talk" and leave it at that.
There are a few posters in this thread that have played contact sports, and have been properly trained, telling you how it actually works. Take our word for it.
There are very plenty of folks out there who do have actual playing experience that disagree with penalizing the defense for leading with the head.
As far as googling spinal chord injuries,(shrader) its under the premise the player will see whats coming at him and protect his head and neck accordingly and less to do with the actual impact, or how its distributed. Head up, less injuries occur because the player reacts accordingly. Again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head vs smashing your face into an oncoming object.
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It will not go away. But it can be REDUCED significantly.
It will never go away completely. It's always been a part of the sport. But it's a bigger deal now because this trend of the "knock out missile" hit has just started in the last 15-20 years. And now its how ALL DBs seem to hit.
It's not a new thing, but it is a new problem.
Reduce it back to only happening accidentally, and everyone will be fine. No need to change the entire game. Just enforce proper tackling.
I'm guessing (and again no insult) that you are in your early 20s at best. I only say that because you talk like someone that has only known this type of tackling so you THINK it's "normal", but it's not.
It is not impossible for DBs to tackle properly, they have just stopped because the "missile" looks better on highlight reels, and because they get to stand over the guy and pound their chest (when it works).
It's incorrect, lazy, and dangerous.
Why the insult?
No, I'm not in my 20's and common sense in my opinion should tell you its not fair for the offense to lead with their head and not the defense.
Hits with the shoulder or shoulder tackles are just as frequent as anything else and DB's are looking to dislodge the football/prevent reception nine times out of ten, not tackle with proper tackling techniques.
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Thats your opinion. Its not the way it actually works in real life.
When you have your head up, you also instinctively slide to your shoulder as well.
Again, if you havent played, you have to take my word on it.
Breakdown, Face up, Hit in the numbers, slide to your shoulder, wrap, and drive. It's really not difficult and much easier/faster than it sounds.
Respectfully disagree Doc,
Helmet to Helmet contact will never go away, better to come up with solutions to prevent injury when it happens then to ask players to do something that is next to impossible.
Neck support with swivel/flex capabilities connecting the helmet to the shoulder pads in the back would go a long way in preventing spinal chord injuries just like padding on the outside of a helmet will reduce whiplash
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Yes, at the very moment of contact, your helmet will drop a bit naturally. That is why they train you to keep it up, so that the drop is minimized. That is not what is going on here.
What we have here are players choosing to lower their helmet and lead with it as a blind weapon.
Im not trying to use this as an insult, but its obvious you never played football or a sport that requires tackling. Because yes, players are programmed robots. That is why they talk about practice reps being so crucial. You train your muscles, body, and brain to instinctively do one thing a certain way, until you get to the point where it just happens.
WRT the bold, funny enough, going in with your head down is actually how you will cause yourself serious spinal injuries.
It's a bit of in between. Of course your head wont be fully up, naturally. But you simply cant lead with the top of the helmet either.
The blow is more evenly distributed and partially absorbed through the shoulder pads when your head is straight. Turning your head up on impact would increase the chance of severe injury in my opinion.(break your neck)
Completely true. Your neck will bend back, it doesn't go down very far before you cause serious spinal injury. Playing hockey we were always taught that if you're going into the boards head first, head up, take the blow on your face and NOT the top of your head.
Bend down and then hold your head all the way and tell me how your neck is going to bend further without breaking. RB's lower there head constantly plowing for more yards, why can they do it and not the defense? Again, ducking your head is a natural reaction vs smashing your face into an oncoming obstacle.
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You are correct in your first part and I just left that detail out of my already long post. But I was always taught that you put your facemask into the numbers or ball. In that area.
Leading with your facemask is not helmet to helmet. They are going after guys that drop their face to the ground and use the crown of the helmet. EXACTLY what Robinson did.
He was already in good position and in a breakdown. He could have/should have kept his face up, and put his mask right into Maclin's numbers. Probably would have jarred the ball loose.
He took the lazy way out instead.
Yes, he deliberately used that form. The players already said they dont care about the penalties, and it shows.
A properly trained and practiced player does not tackle like that. Its that simple.
He already had his head up to begin with. If it "happened too fast" he wouldve been caught in proper form. He chose to drop his head and "missile" the WR.
Doesnt matter how fast it happens. When you have proper tackling ingrained in you, you do it right instinctively. It's no harder to do it right, than it is to "missile" a guy.
When you are leaning forward on a full run, expecting a player to hold his head up on contact is not even possible in my opinion. Players are not robots programed to smash their face into oncoming objects. Also sounds like a good way to break your neck.
Ducking ones head is a natural reaction.
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Nope, watch the clip. When Maclin is first coming at him, he is in a good breakdown stance, head up. Right as Maclin gets to him, he drops his head ALL the way down and launches into him helmet first.
Bad form that he chose to use. He was already in position to use proper form, then chose to go for the "big hit".
I also blame coaching in this. Using proper tackling form should be second nature to these guys at this point of their life/career. I played football and rugby from 6 years old through college, and proper tackling became a reflex. These players have just stopped listening to their coaches, or the coaches arent saying anything about it. And if there are ANY coaches teaching this, they need to be fired and banned from all levels.
So whats your saying is it was a deliberate blow knowing he was going to get penalized and I disagree.
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Fig, what the league and officials are expecting Defensive players to do is KEEP THEIR HEAD UP, and tackle with proper form.
Dunta Robinson just gave us a classic example of how NOT to tackle.
Here is the clip, notice that his head is so low that his chin is tucked into his chest. That is extremely dangerous for not only the WR, but also for the tackler. The old rule is "If you are looking at the ground, you will end up there, injured".
You must must must be able to SEE what you are hitting.
Robinson came in using the top of his helmet as a weapon, and launched his helmet and shoulder into the WR.
That is NOT how you're supposed to tackle. That goes against EVERY tackling form rule they teach since Pop Warner.
Head up, lead with your facemask/shoulder, WRAP and DRIVE. The worst part is, when Maclin catches the ball, Robinson is in good position and in good form to use proper tackling. He CHOOSES at the last second to turn himself into a missile and launch into Maclin.
Had he used proper tackling form, Robinson could have had an even BIGGER hit on Maclin, and not be $40k lighter.
It's lazy and stupid on the defenders part, and they need to be fined/suspended.
youtube.com/watch?v=fB6TEXTJceo
Good example Dr Dare,
In my opinion there is a good possibility the defender meant to make a shoulder tackle but because of the speed and inability to precisely time the hit/placement the players ended up going helmet to helmet. Nobody with any common sense wants to cost their team 15 yards.
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Check out my photos from the Buffalo Bills vs Oakland Raiders game
in The Stadium Wall Archives
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Michael also writes some real good Bills reports/ articles,