zonabb

To me, the investment bank put a value on the team is considering all associated costs and revenues, including projections. That will include the short term revenue generated by being "stuck" at RWS with this lease. The temporal and geographic nature of the lease will keep the bid value lower for an owner looking to stay here beyond the lease and maybe somewhat higher for someone looking to leave after the lease expires because they're willing to bid a little more knowing the revenues in the future are greater, say in Toronto. Now, the key is that an owner intent on moving is making a significant gamble that the league would approve a relocation and they can get a stadium built. All these fiscal and risk factors considered, I'm not sure how anyone would bid $2B for this team without a new stadium here or anywhere... Does Toronto bid $2B and self-finance a $1B+ stadium since by all accounts local money for a stadium in Toronto ain't happening? Could happen I guess.

Like any good multibillion dollar corporation, Pyramid starts new LLCs for every project.... limiting the risk from one LLC upon another under a single umbrella corporation, which is the intent of LLCs. So in 1999 S&R Company of West Seneca, L.L.C. was formed with Pyramid Management Group as listed as the applicant. Subsequently, S&R Company of West Seneca Newco LLC and S&R Company of West Seneca Newco II LLC were formed in August 2004 and then S&R Company of West Seneca II, LLC was formed in 2012. Pyramid and these subsidiary LLCs were share the same 4 Clinton Street, Syracuse address. This is very common in development. For example, if you look at most development projects, they're separate LLCs from the companies identified in the paper.

Auto-dependent, regional suburban land uses are not the future of the American city. As the younger generations migrate to the city (and hopefully stay there through their home buying and child-rearing years), gas prices steadily increase as demand in developing nations increases and supply is unable to keep up with demand, and businesses re-centralize, the suburbs will die off and more and more people will have to live in dense urban environments that are walkable and connected to their daily needs with public transportation. Those that believe in "freedom" and "personal choice" (the same who likely believe in endless cheap gas and call climate change a myth) can believe in the suburbs all you want but economics are the only think you can believe in and the future points back to the city. So building a monolith, single use, auto-dependent stadium off an exit in a crappy section of the town connected to nothing is asinine. Owning the property isn;t the one and only consideration for stadium location... or at least shouldn't be!

Better be good options because the Fan Alliance spokesperson was just on WGR55 and said he's 65/35 the Bills stay and that Toronto will be putting in an "aggressive bid that includes a stadium." Not sure if they put their audio online so I don't have the link. In any case, this will be interesting on two fronts: 1. What the Wilson estate does with the bids and if they are looking at high bid only as the buyer or do they consider the local bid(s) 2. If they NFL agrees to the sale to Toronto interests, they're basically tell all non-major market cities, that once they need a new stadium, relocation of their franchise to the largest bidder/market is what matters to them and that history and culture of cities with longstanding pro football teams matter not. I have a feeling the Toronto bid is as much about showing the NFL it's ready for a team as it is about wanting the Bills. Absent the Bills moving there, they want an expansion team or another relocation. Putting in a major comprehensive bid with a stadium shows the NFL they're legit. And as I've said here before, a team in Toronto helps the Bills.

Amen. Said it numerous times... A team in TO and Bflo is the best solution, along with a regional division of Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Toronto all within 6 or so hours drive (Pittsburgh to Toronto being the longest) and putting the Bills smack dead in the middle with no more than a 4 hour drive to any of those games. More importantly, the league gets the big market it wants, keeps the historic small market and Buffalo, following simple economic location theory, should get more spillover for tickets and boxes from Ontario as the high rollers take all the seats in Toronto and fans come here for more affordable tickets. The southern Ontario fans we have will likely increase as the natural need to pick a side... Toronto v Buffalo. I think the NFL can top out, competitively, at 36 teams with 16 making the playoffs and if an STL or OAK or SD ends up staying and the league wants to get into LA it'll have to expand and TO is almost guaranteed a team in that scenario because they'd need to add two to get to an even 34 and on their way to an eventual 36. If anyone thinks the NFL is going to wait around for a team to relocate in order to get into LA or Toronto, you're fooling yourself.

First off, Artvoice has historically had better articles on urban issues like this, the Buffalo News is too close to business interests and the developer class to make any real assessment of anything in this region. But Fisher is decidedly pro-urban to a fault and that can cloud his judgment as well, although he's still head and shoulders above any other writer in WNY when it comes to policy. That being said, it was hard to read much beyond the first sentence when he states that Buffalo is "arguably" the smallest NFL market. That's lazy work on his part, not because he can't find the data to show otherwise (it's not although is one of the smallest as we all know) but because by makign this vague argument, it'll support his argument that the stadium must go in Buffalo, and without reading the rest, to support his pro-urban agenda. Although I hate the way he frames his work in many ways, spatially and from a location theory standpoint, it's the most logical location for many reasons.. space, connectivity, and what many miss is that in 10-15 years, as more people move back into the city, it'll be more central to the population and easily connected with public transportation. The reason for city repopulation is partly a preference by some but also the high costs of gas and car ownership as gas will continue to climb and wages stagnate, making the city more viable. To the comment above about traffic... it's a dying issue. We have to get used to the idea that the way we move in the future isn't going to be everyone in a single car, those days are fast coming to an end... again high gas prices will only continue as supply declines and global demand increases. A site with connections to public transportation MUST be the site. Also, who owns property will go along way toward stadium site selection. Govt owned property means "free" for a stadium whereas a Milstein-owned property means added hard costs. So again.... start connection the dots and its gonna be a city site, without question.

Batavia is the location you select when you decide to throw location theory right out the window. Absolute joke of an idea. Lots of open space is all it has going for it and when you consider the actual important variables, it's not even a legitimate option. You can start right away with the likelihood of losing Buffalo-area and Toronto area season ticket holders. I wouldn't attend games if my drive increased from 30 to over 60 minutes. Traffic will be a nightmare... one road in, one road out. Imagine the waits at the tolls. And sure, it might get a handful more Rochester and Syracuse fans to games but on balance you lose Buffalo/Ontario fans. The biggest reason is likely that county funding is necessary, as well as state, and that county doesn't have the funds Erie would. And finally, what owner in his right mind would want his team practicing and playing in the middle of nowhere? You want a bunch of millionaires to live in a rural setting or drive 45-60 minutes to the facility? Sorry, if Buffalo has problems with young millionaires wanting an urban lifestyle, this won't help. In an era of increasing gas prices and when we should expect to see more urban living and less auto-dependency the last place you put a stadium is in a corn field in Batavia. This site is a total non-starter. They have a marketing guy running the county who tried to explain on the radio the other day why it has advantages over other locations and he failed miserably. This is honestly the dumbest idea in the stadium discussion.

Awesome... a Democrat v. Republican squabble in a thread about a social menace busted for coke and kissed away millions. As a non-affiliated voter, I agree, Democrats and Republicans are wacky... but so is anyone who votes a party line or a single issue... that's the biggest problem.

Honestly, if a fan "feels helpless" or as a "pawn," that fan needs to get a life. It's a game, it's interesting, and it's supposed to be a respite from everyday doldrums. If you're treating the game and your team like that, you're out of touch. Who cares? Dissecting and reliving each and every draft and player and allowing the NFL to eat up your life is confusing to me. I come here, check for updated news, read a new thread or two and that's it. Take a step back people, holy hell. Another thread today suggested we'd all be doctors and lawyers (count me in that group) if we spent as much time on school as we did on this team, and the same could be said for society and our lives, we'd live in a better place. Imagine if the state of union address had as many viewers and we paid attention to politics and society more, then we'd really "feel helpless" and like "pawns" but at least there we have a vote. But unfortunately the average NFL fan is distracted by the shiny logo and fooled into thinking it really matters. It doesn't.

Ebron. Been begging for a game changing TE for years. I think the overall impact on the offense by adding a TE vs a WR is greater than by adding a WR. WR is apparently deep as is tackle, conveniently for the Bills. So that's my hope.

You'r unquestionably overstating it. He's put "cranes in the sky' on one project, not many, on one site in a city that's more than 40 square miles. He's hardly "committed to the revitalization of the city." I'd be shocked if he could identify more than a handful of streets on a map. So let's not anoint him the savior of a once proud city whose legacy is massive vacancy, abandonment, segregation, poverty, dysfunctional schools, and pathetic leadership. About the only thing I'll applaud him for is using his own money without his hand out like the d-bag hypocrite who touts a conservative agenda until the money is doled out for his projects, then suddenly the govt is welcome in the private market place if he benefits. However, he still bought the parcel from the city for pennies on the dollar, so there's that reality. I'd certainly, however, rather have Pegula than these other guys. He seems to be old school, enjoys his team for the love of the game, not the greed and profiteering a Golisano, Milstein, Trump, or Bon Douchey would command.

These players complain and whine and throw temper tantrums about being overworked (tough life they live from December to July, you know, getting paid to be health and in shape) and treated like a commodity by rich owners who throw them away when they're junk. Yet here they go, a combination of ignorance, arrogance and greed, and treat themselves like a tradeable commodity on some junk bond market. Unbelievable and laughable. What respect I had for this guy took a bog hit with this charade. One more nail in the NFL's coffin. Can I watch a game or listen to talk radio or come here without the constant discussion of money, salary, new stadium costs, etc? Probably not, which is why the NFL, as Mark Cuban has suggested, with peak and decline. I hope he bombs now just so the idiots who throw their money at his "stock" lose every nickel. Seriously.

Compare how or by what measure? Popularity, probably not. By winning the Bills aren't in the same ballpark given their absence of a title in their sport. By legendary, transcendent players, who do the Bills have to compare to Bobby Orr, the greatest defenseman of all time? No one. Reggie White was better than Bruce Smith. Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith were better than OJ or Thurman. 10 guys are better than Andre and Bruce and Kent Hull and fill in the blank. By money/profit? I don't have the figures on profit since no one offers that up but I'd be willing to bet that the Jacob's family makes more on the Bruins than the Bills make. That market size is huge and basically everyone in Mass, NH and Maine are Bruins fans, they sell tons of gear, tickets are expensive, boxes are sold out, and they own the concessions. I'd rather be the Bruins owner than the Bills owner.... winning AND profit, what a novel idea. Sorry but if I was cognizant as a newborn in the 70s and my parents were able to see the future and said "Here are the Bruins and Bills and their futures, pick one to root for" I'd pick the Bruins. Winning matters no matter what sport. The NFL has become an overblown hype machine, more shine than substance. Sure we all like it but just because its big and popular doesn't diminish other sports and their franchises. Not sure when a Stanley Cup and the NHL became amateurs in the minds of myopic NFL fans but that's a laughable proposition. And I'm not even an NHL fan, I just find this line of thinking short sighted.

The problem with the ill-equipped visual analysts is that they foolishly equate building and aesthetics to a strong economy. The reality is quite the opposite because all this new construction and the aesthetic fetishism downtown and a few city neighborhoods is entirely supported by government subsidy in a desperate attempt to reverse a still declining regional economy. Every development project is on the backs of taxpayers via ECIDA, NYS, federal or local tax breaks. EVERYTHING... from historic tax breaks for things like the Lafayette Hotel to massive influx of state dollars at canalside, none of it is the result of structural improvements in our economy or the result of any visionary leadership. You can't build out of a failure. The city still bleeds populations, has one of the highest poverty rates of any city over 250,000, is among the most segregated, has one of the worst public urban school districts, and has more vacancy and abandonment in more of the city than areas of strong housing markets. The suburbs aren't any better, the first ring suburbs are increasingly losing population, increasing in poverty, seeing increased vacancy and decreased housing values, and an aging population on limited, fixed incomes. If anything, the only thing these tax breaks in the city have done is limited development in the suburbs, which is good. But it hasn't had any statistically significant impact on this region's future... Not to say it won't, but the data other than the number of construction permits doesn't support that. This is a region in a global economy and a minor improvements are only minor if they rest of the region continues to decline. Get out of North Bflo and the Elmwood Village and visit the whole of the east side, much of the west side, black rock, riverside, parts of South Buffalo. The city looks great if you view it through a straw while standing in front of the Blue Monk after paying $9 for a crappy beer. But that's the myopic Buffalo mentality, so desperate for any improvement that they equate bricks and mortar with actual transformational change. But even in the city, the leadership cuts off its nose to spite its face. Giving Uniland millions to build a building for Delaware North so they can move 2 blocks and vacate another entire building is a self-inflicted wound. But hey, let's not consider the chain of vacancy created by stepping into the marketplace and giving one owner an advantage over another that results in a massive loss of property tax on one building that is barely balanced by new taxes on the new building, if even pays taxes at all in the short term. We're just in the same era are parents and grandparents were when politicians and the developer class promise that is we just give out and receive tax breaks, it'll change. Yeah those $8 an hour jobs selling concession in Canalside, tending bar at the plethora of consumptive class bars and restaurants, and hotel jobs are booming this economy. Read the book Power Failure and tell me how different today is than yesterday.

It would be strongly opposing the use of "strong." Holy hell can't anyone be original anymore. Everything is "nation" or "strong" and its nauseating. How about developing some creative strength. And no, I'm not going to because that's not my role and I didn't start this. I think cliches and monikers are moronic. How about letting the collective actions define the community's name. So rather than Buffalo being "Buffalo Strong" or it's just Buffalo but the term connotes the qualities everyone would prefer to define. Buffalo is not strong or resilient. Economically we continue to decline. Socially we continue to segregate minorities and concentrate the impoverished. We lack strong leadership. We lack originality. And yet we take any minor victory and try to use it to show we're on the rebound, when all data pointing elsewhere. And mostly, like the responses to this post will be, we lack thick skin to accept the reality of our reality and instead chose to construct an alternate false reality based on some stupid slogan.

Wrong on many levels. First, Milstein is persona non grata with state and local officials over his lack of investment in his properties. They aren't going to reward his speculation with a handsome golden parachute. Does this sound like a guy who you want govt officials giving your money too? http://host-40.242.54.159.gannett.com/news/daybreak/article/225115/37/NYC-Billionaire-Absentee-Landlord-To-140-Acres-In-Niagara-Falls Second, the location of DNC concessions are irrelevant... the own the current concession and would likely as owners control them again. So he's getting them in the stadium and NF concession not matter what.

Great story.... let me sum it up. We've met once, and all locations are on the table. Wow. The only way the Falls works is with significant public subsidy and that would mean state subsidy because Niagara County is about 1/4 the population and unlikely to offer the same level of investment Erie County would. Does the state step in and subsidize this? If they are interested, which I doubt, you CAN rule the Falls out. Sure you can't rule them out if you ignore all reality but if you consider the context and that an new owner will have significant say, the Falls is dead in the water. And if it's state funded, does the state want to deal with corruption in Falls govt and the local trades..... doubt it. The long term failures of the Falls are entirely the resilt of bad leadership in local govt, I doubt it is ever given honest consideration.

Been a tough week for sure, the Kelly thing has rattled me as a person and a lifelong WNYer. He's a first ballot all-time Buffalonian from a short list of contenders. A guy who never wanted to be here turns out to be one of us and has stayed here with us, battling with us, with the kind of pride for this place that few exhibit. His legacy as player, man, and fellow "neighbor" is unquestioned and his bond to the region is unbreakable. But Wilson's legacy is really tied to this statement. I for one believe his legacy is inextricably linked to what his will says about the future plans for the team. One paper his family stands to make hundreds of millions from the initial $25,000 investment off the backs of taxpayers and loyal fans. If his family seeks maximum return, which is their right, with zero safeguards or plans in place, his legacy frankly takes a hit and all the talk about keeping them here when he was alive turns out to be lip service in the end. I wholeheartedly appreciate his faith in the region when has alive. He's a true old-fashioned passionate football owner, unlike these brazen, greedy corporate types like Dan Snyder. In the end if he allows his family to make a few million more (on top of hundreds of millions in pure equity), that's problematic for me. Might not be for all but it will be for me. We as taxpayers have helped make those millions. We've provide the operational capital to build, own and maintain the stadium. That doesn't entitle us to dictate much, but it should leave some consideration of that fact when it comes time to sell this team. Here's hoping the greatest owner this region has had cements that legacy. RIP Ralph, you'll be missed.

Cuban get slammed by those covering the NFL for making such statements but that means little, those people will always protect the golden goose. People unfortunately aren't willing to think long term, most American's in fact can't... they don't save money, don't plan for their kids college (it's why every college kid is in debt, their parents waste their money in the American consumptive lifestyle instead of saving it), they smoke, they drink, they overeat. As a country we're hogs. That culture is perpetuated by corporate American and the NFL. The NFL is chasing the 18-34 demographic.... young, not forward thinking, not saving money, buying NFL gear (how many 35+ year olds do you see wearing some man's name on his back?), not having kids that take away from their distractions.... So that's great, so long as that demographic stays interested.... The interest part of the key here... when I was growing up here, it was Bills and Sabres. But now little soccer is more popular than little league football. That will have ripple effects for the NFL and they likely know it given their desire to grow overseas because they will reach a plateau here. The NFL has some major flaws 1) it thinks it can't do any wrong 2) it thinks no other sport is worthy of watching 3) it's players are generally unlikable, 4) has no desire for consistency or heritage in its game, constantly changing rules it can't interpret, and 5) believes in its own manifest destiny. But here's the thing with the NFL and people over 35 like me.... we can't relate to the NFL. All my friends, many who were diehard NFL junkies in high school and college, just don't care. After a while, you get disgusted with the constant greed and ignorance of players. Sports were a welcome respite from everyday life, but now the NFL is everyday life... today Jerry "Trump" Jones wants money back from a player... after literally taking millions in taxpayer handouts for his stadium. Guess the only ones allowed to rob anyone are owners. We have a player getting stabbed, and he's from here. A tough guy punched his fiancee's lights out, literally, and dragged her into and out of an elevator and his team today is said to be "backing him aggressively"... of course, the dollar matters, not having any class, respect, or dignity. When I was young, my dad watched the BIlls and I looked up to the players. Now my friends with sons don't let them watch the NFL... from the constant boner ads and beer sales to the antics of the players its hard to watch and to teach your kids to have class and respect when you have coaches and players acting like aholes yelling at refs, standing over fallen players, screaming into the cameras. Do you think for one second this microcosm of American culture will be welcome and supported in England, France, Spain, Germany? Uh no... And you know, there are alternatives believe it or not. I see little kids wearing international soccer jerseys now and hear parents talking about the English Premier League. It's becoming a popular sports and I for one have begun to get up early on the weekends to spend two hours before noon watching a match instead of having 4 hours of my Sunday wasted. But Cuban is spot on, the league is more interested in money and growth (I guess billions in owner profit every year still isn't enough) and eventually that'll be its downfall. Just imagine this sports with teams overseas, 7:30 a.m. start times, ads all over jerseys, no kickoffs, the removal of all small market teams (forget history and heritage, that don't make money!)..... all great empires fail. The American empire will be over by the end of the century and soccer will take over America before the NFL takes over the world. In 32 NFL cities we don't believe it but if you don't have a home team and its not part of your local culture, it's easy to ignore and walk away from when you get bored or turned off. So when the Bills leave (book it, they're gone.... the almighty dollar wins not history and heritage), there is nothing the NFL offers to keep me interested. My interest has severely waned and I only care because it's part of my local culture.

Jill Kelly's blog, which I saw for the first time, states "the cancer’s back, aggressive, and starting to spread." Must read if only to see the picture and see how the guy we all think we know is still able to think about others. http://www.jillk.org/journal/ Saddest news indeed.

I think they need to think of building a smaller stadium that is not wicked expensive and break the mold of gaudy garbage like Dallas and Arizona. A stadium like they use in the English Premier League, like Emirates, would be great. You drop the seating down to 55,000-60,000 since in reality the number of people willing to pay top dollar to go is declining and the home experience is excellent. This limits supply and demand goes up, overcoming lost revenue from less seats by recapturing it by higher prices. The firm that designed Emirates, Populous, is the firm that designed Emirates and the RWS improvements. If the state and local govts are going to come to the rescue for a new owner wanting a new stadium, a cost-effective yet quality stadium is what taxpayers should demand. Or it has to take the Heinz Field approach. There's a stadium built in the early 2000s for around $300M. It's more of an open design than a bowl, cutting down on construction costs. Compare that to the $1.7B on the MetLife stadium, which is an enclosed bowl. The difference is that in the open heinz field, the seating is only 65,000. At MetLife its 82,000. Each are different sized markets and stadium size seems to recognize that. So the issue here is that if a new stadium is what a new owner wants and uses as ransom to stay, it has to be done well but inexpensively when they ask for public dollars. And that means no dome. There is zero justification for the best stadium, which every new stadium tries to be. It has to be the best fiscal and operation stadium for Buffalo.

Game is getting lamer and lamer. Ironically, I have now found myself into the EPL because the games are commercial free, there is no replay, I can watch my team every Saturday in less than 2 hours, the announcers are well-spoken and knowledgeable about the game and not speaking in hyperbole or acting, the rules are the rules and the game doesn't change to drive the almighty dollar and there is little in the way of subjectivity with rules. The NFL game takes too long, the product is getting worse, replay has ruined the sport mainly because there is too much subjectivity to it, the refs can't consistently make the right calls (does anyone even know what a catch is anymore?), the players are getting more unlikable and harder to root for. And frankly this constant focus on the dollars of the game is nauseating. The constant talk of manifest destiny by Goodall and his greedy group of profiteers at the public trough. I'll always be interested in the Bills but I watch less and less every year.... and then we they leave, I'll gladly focus on what I am finding is a better sport and product.

There, fixed. Another misuse of the term analytics. When you are talking about the likelihood of an event happening that's probability, not analytics.

Damage Case - Motorhead Propaganda - Sepultura There's No Room for You Here - White Stripes

What an outsider thinks or knows is what we local experience as the truth. The truth can hurt, and if you live here, you get emotional and don't want these to matter but they do. Small, run down city. Check. Has among the highest rates of poverty, segregation and vacancy in ant American city. Despite a few gentrified neighborhoods, more of the city fits this description than doesn't. Small market. Check. Among the smallest markets not matter how you attempt to measure it. Including Rochester still makes is among the smaller markets. Crappy economy. Check. Low opportunities for white collar, college educated people. New job Creation is on the back of taxpayer subsidies and for back room services like GEICO. High taxes. Check. Erie County is among the highest taxed counties in the country, Unstable ownership. Check. The owner is creeping up to 100, he's passed control to a marketer and the front office has historically had more turnover than the Kardashians' mattresses. Lacks beaches, etc. Check. Nightlife her isn't high end, no glamour. No beaches, unless swimming in human waste is interesting to you. Low prestige franchise. Check. Winning matters and they haven't. Their historic record is losing. Four SB losses. So luring quality players who want to win is hard if they get a similar offer from a better team or location.