Mango

I think BB is his own beast. These guys come up under him and they learn a ton, but they don't really get it because they aren't him. Those types of coaches are always going to be flawed (frauds?). You want a guy who is curious by nature and willing to be wrong. I sort of equate it to Aston Martin in F1 if you are a fan. They have a history of just ripping off Redbull and Mercedes so they start with a good base. But they don't fully understand the overall concepts of the car so they have no idea how to upgrade, adjust, and set it up week to week over a season.

I don't think we are too far apart here. Yes personnel has been part of the issue, Davis included. But under Daboll and Dorsey (year one) we have sucked at spreading the ball out and that has made life a lot more difficult for Diggs, Davis, our RB's, and the OL. I don't think it is a coincidence we are much more equitable in the passing game and things have gotten easier for everybody. It isn't the only reason, but it plays a big part. One hand washes the other here. Yes Davis needs to be better (catch more balls). But he has shown the ability to take over games here and there. In the current version of this offense he has been pretty decent this year. He is currently on pace for 51/934. That is pretty good chunk yardage. I would like to see him a little closer to ~65 maybe and I would be OK with 850 yards at that rate. But honestly if Diggs is around 105, Davis 65, Kincade 50, and 30-40 from Knox, Cook, Harty/Sherfield, we are in a pretty great spot going forward. That sort of split should always be the goal. I think that has been how a good portion of the top teams are spreading the ball around. There have only been 4 SB winners with WR who caught more than 100 passes in a season. Kelce (22), Cup (21) both had historical seasons (literally), Michael Thomas (2015), and Troy Brown (01).

I know your heat says that is the way to win a championship but that isn't the case. Lets call "at least 10 targets per game" 12 for arguments sake. 12 targets per game would be 204 and the second most in NFL history. Even if you account for the extra game, 193 targets would be the 8th most targets in league history. Also not an attainable goal. Out of the top 25 most targeted receivers in a single season only one of them won a championship that year. Cooper Kupp in 2021. I would prefer to have Diggs be "the guy" with 100-ish catches on 150 targets and a ton of guys in the 30-50 catch range then force the ball to Diggs 204 times one guy with 60 catches and everybody else with 20. For reference, since 2000 there have only been 5 times a team has one the SB with a receiver in the top 5 for receptions, and only another 4 with a receiver in the top 10.

Further upthread I posted the breakdown of the last couple cap implications of pass catchers. I was on my phone in bed so there was a little bit of wonky math. It is minimal. That is a very important part of the equation. Something to consider when you talk about the cap situation in KC is that Kelce is a TE and gets paid like a great TE, not a great receiver. It makes a difference. Here is a quick summary with cap$ and cap% just because total cap dollars has some peaks and plateaus with COVID. The Bills are in a good spot (this year) in terms of cap allocation. Upgrading Davis is a reasonable conversation. But not at any real cost. You are sort of just naming names without telling the whole story. They are good, and better than Davis, but you can't talk about value without talking about their cost when they won those games. Almost all of those guys were on cheap and/or rookie contracts. There is no paying a 1a/1b receiver while winning a championship. At some point the secondary outlet is about the QB spreading the ball around and putting the right athletes in the proper position to succeed. as much as it is about the guys playing the position.

Probably gonna eat my neighbors cat.

I can get behind all of that. It pains me to say it, but I think Daboll/Shoen deserve the brunt of the blame here. They signed a good amount of FA's and only one offensive lineman, and gave Jones that contract. I just think the Jones contract is a relatively small piece to the NYG puzzle and didn't cause any harm in roster building this offseason or next. I don't see a path where the Giants don't move on from at least Daboll if not both him and Shoen this offseason.

I am not saying you don't want quality receivers. Or even a solid second option. A big part of what I am referring to is the last season or two where the board has been filled with "Pay (insert start receiver) $15M per year. Every team is doing it." Of course, if you can get a sure handed outlet like JuJu for $3.5M the Bills should go out and do that. Hell, let Davis walk and grab a guy in the first this year. The roster is fairly complete and it is likely a cheap upgrade. Equitable distribution has been the name of the game for some time. There is certainly a cost formula to the whole thing that needs to be adhered to as well. Spreading the ball out is something we have sucked at for a while now. Some of that is on the GM, some of it is on the OC, and some of that is on the QB. I think it is a big part of why the OL and running game looks better as well. It relieves a lot of pressure from everybody. I think it is a more complicated solution than "get a second receiver". To your point about having a second option when Diggs is taken away, in the only game Diggs didn't have 100 yards this year, Davis went 6/7 for 92 and a TD. He has had some ups and downs, but he did step up FWIW. He had himself a bit of a day on Josh's second best game of the season.I think if Davis/Diggs cannot get it done on a given week the combo of Knox and Kincade can likely pick up the slack. Which is also part of the secret sauce for guys who are repeatedly winning SB's. I am happy we are getting better at it. A big portion of the credit for that goes to Josh and Dorsey.

I don't totally disagree here. But the Jones contract isn't holding them back. They have something like $45M in space next year even with Jones, and he only counts for $15M this year. They brought in a ton of FA this passed offseason and 1 offensive lineman. They have the cash to fill a lot of holes. The Giants can and should move on from Jones when they can. But there are a lot of issues outside of QB that are destroying this team. Daboll and Shoen were hired within a few days of each other. They deserve to be on the chopping block. Those guys throwing DJ under the bus on this is right up there with the shirt treatment Saleh has given White.

I think Daboll has always been a blowhard. Not a terrible dude, but he cannot be "the guy" at the top or in total control of one side of the ball. He needs a few degrees of separation to provide a buffer. He needs to be part of an ensemble, he can't be the star or the conductor.

I don't disagree with you, but last night he completed 79% of his passes (27/34). The Mannings were pretty critical of play call and personnel groupings last night. With a lot of "Everybody is covered" and "Where is he supposed to throw when all he has is the backs of his receivers heads" on top of it. (paraphrasing) Jones isn't great, but I think he is getting thrown under the bus for last night. The pick 6 wasn't good but it also wasn't the most flagrant issue with the team either. It isn't like the team was awesome and they were a QB away. That game wasn't his fault. A lot is going wrong with the Giants. I don't like Dabolls reaction to it. I think he is treating Jones like Saleh is treating White.

it is just message board fodder. My point is that if we are talking about going after fired head coaches I would much prefer a guy like McVay who has been apart of a lot of good offenses but failed with some of the HC management over a guy who has like 8 years of bottom 5 offenses in the NFL and 2-3 good years with Josh. In reality if LAR moved on from McVay I would guess he gets another HC gig. But I do think when you have a guy like Josh and a defensive HC, Buffalo becomes a possible landing spot for FA HC to reset for a couple of seasons before their next HC position. So I guess there could be a possibility however unlikely. The Manningcast rolled their eyes when Jones got swallowed up by the DL and every WR had their backs turned running 3 x 10 yard curl routes. Jones isn't great, but he got no favors last night. If the Giants move on I would be happy to have him as a back up for a year or two to "get right".

If Gailey landed Cam Newton he would have been our coach for a while, and dare I say would have ended the drought earlier. No complaints, we better off with McD and Josh. You can't change one thing without changing everything afterwards.

same The Patriots had some timely advantages to their calls. But I think this years Chiefs are way worse. What they’ve been able to get a way with on OL for nearly every play of every game is insane. This is worse than its ever been for any team. Daniel Jones was nowhere near the top of the list of things wrong with the Giants last night. That was a total dumpster fire. Danny Dimes contract is a non issue, they have $40M in space next year with an out after 2024.

I think Saleh is a big part of why pundits think it’s ok to speak so flippantly about Wilson. Also Harrison is a consummate POS.

Danny Dimes isn’t elite. A couple head scratchers. But he completed like 80% of his passes and lead the team in rushing. He had zero help out there. I’m not sure Mahomes would have gotten it done. By the second half on the Manningcast Peyton was ripping half of the personnel groupings and play calls. This game wasn’t on him Jones. Daboll and Shoen deserve a lot of blame for where this team is right now. They need a lot of help outside of QB.

We’ll have to draft a receiver high next year. Diggs won’t last forever and I think Davis asking price is too high given the cap. I like having him around. It’s a shame. But part of the business.

3/6 were won by Brady/Mahomes. 2 QB’s notorious for spreading the ball out? Part of what I am talking about isn’t just painting with a broad brush “two good receivers”. When I talk about premier I’m talking about paying Diggs and $18M on the other side of the field. So sure, if we can get OBJ for $1.25M like he got paid in LA. Do it. And ya know what, go ahead and get Tyreek and Kelce for a grand total of like $13M. I’ll take that. I would love to grab JuJu for $3.7M. The 2017 Eagles combined cap hit for Wentz, Foles, Jefferies, and Ertz was like $25M total. Gronk, Evans, and Godwin combined for $15M against the cap for TB. What I don’t want is a $40M QB, $25M receiver, and another $18M receiver and all the targets going to those guys. That’s not how any of this works. But sure, go get great players for cheap or draft them, I’m all for it. But at the end of the day really good teams spread the ball out a ton and rarely have a 1a/1b in the stat book and never have them in the check book. A lot of the time they don’t have there number 1 that is close to leading the league in receptions.

They have something like $45M in space next year and they can get out of the Jones contract after. Jones contract isn’t holding the team back. And the team is short more than a QB. The Manning’s spent a good portion of the second half ripping play calls and personnel choices. The Giants are a disaster all over the place.

https://ibb.co/FJFnnGW (on an iPhone so I can’t attach the photo. Too large)

All of them.

Peyton is absolutely obliterating play calling and personnel choices. It’s almost every down at this point.

They have a “reasonable” out after next season. The Giants have a lot more problems than Daniel Jones. They have $43M in space next year. They will have some money. If they don’t have an OL after next year they’re likely cleaning house. But somebody probably loses their job after this disaster too. The cringe from the Manning’s about the Giants entire offense is palpable.

3 x 10 yard hook routes. The Daboll special!