Mango

Other sports have been crossing oceans for decades to compete. OP pretends this is new to the world so all data is flawed because Bills. (And some weird statement about science in general). It’s just new to the NFL. Most sports who are far more invested in international travel have laid it out. Got at least two weeks early or show up close to game time. Science doesn’t mean “do this and 100% of the time everything will be great”.

This game is all stalled drives, dropped passes, mystery flags, and defensive injuries. I’m generally very quick to point fingers but I just want the guys to come home and I want to move on.

They’re saying he stayed on the ground after the Bills called a TO. But I swear I’ve heard of teams getting their TO back when the refs catch an injury after the fact. This one is a first for my memory.

The defense haven’t been able to overcome the 3 and outs and constant ghost flags all game. It was a matter of time before they popped. Just get back home at this point.

I’m no engineer of field surface guru, but my first thought was that the soccer field is a hybrid natural/artificial surface lifted off the ground. And the NFL is full synthetic laid on a 1 inch rubber mat directly on the foundation/tracks of the stadium. That has to hurt. Sheesh. It likely seems like it isn’t a huge deal. But even running on the sidewalk vs street as a normal human who occasionally jogs makes a huge difference on joint health.

This sounds like a guy I’d bump into at Brick Bar ripping coke on a casual Wednesday night.

Agreed, I’ve been critical of both, more so Rousseau. Oliver has always made a lot of plays just not as many splash plays as some would like. Also big props on Jones and Floyd. Their impact cannot be understated. They’ve both balled out.

I couldn’t watch tonight but checking the box score, you’d like to see more than 2 solo tackles from your big time FA. But in on 9 and 2 solo is the Edmunds stat line so….

I think the team travels with like 150 people or so +\-. I’m guessing that means any first class seat has to sit next to somebody and everybody else gets a row to themselves. If I book a flight last minute and can’t get extra leg room I always go to the back row window. More often than not the middle seat will be open and I can stretch diagonally.

For other sports who do a lot of international travel the standard operating procedure is either at least two weeks or go right before the event and don’t let the body slow down.

It just occurred to me that these stadiums are built for 25 person rosters. These NFL games need at least 53. Plus you have to add in that these teams will likely travel with a bunch of their practice squad players to account for injury being so far away. Pretty nuts that that whole build out is purely for the 2 NFL games per year.

For sports that travel internationally regularly that’s what the data has suggested. At least two weeks or just keep the momentum rolling.

Just to clarify you mean 3 games is post merger and 4 games is pre-merger? It might be the pot talking but I read this 100 times and it says “tied the record with 3…the most is 4”.

I think YAC is up. Not to combined two topics but I think part of it is just spreading the ball out more. It forces the defense to leave more open space and respect everybody. Josh, Dorsey, and Personnel are all pieces of that pie. I’ve been pounding the table on this board to spread the ball out. I’m just thrilled it’s happening!

There is a space in between your very extreme example. The Rams managed the cap in a way maybe only one other team in history has (Saints). It’s a terrible historical example. So sure we can talk about Kupp. And we can also say “yes they won that Super Bowl” but until they straighten their cap out, partially because of that contact, they’ll continue to suck balls. They risked their entire future for one shot. They’re lucky it worked out, it doesn’t make it best practices.. So no, I don’t want to sign Adams even if his cap hit is $3M this year if it means him, Allen, and Diggs account for us being -$60M over the cap going forward. And to an extent I don’t want Davis at anything more than $3-5M next year (he wont). I’m all for drafting a WR high to fill the gap in 24 and keep cost low. That’s the model that has sustained success for franchises that have won multiple SB’s. I prefer to follow that one. We have enough long term pieces to do this thing more than once.

You can definitely speak to cap hit in a SB year. WTF are you talking about? AAV is useless. Not being on the hook for big contract is paramount to signing high level players across your roster. The cost effectiveness of the roster right now is about as good as it’s ever been. That is a super important part of the Bills journey for a SB. Nobody is winning SB’s with a huge QB and WR bill due in the same year because it pulls from other positions. That’s a very valid and true topic of conversation however inconvenient for you. The cap is only accounting to a point. You can only kick the can so long. It’s a big part of why LAR is struggling right now.

I'm not your buddy, pal! I understand that completely. But it doesn't change the fact that when the bill comes due paying Kupp the remainder of his deal costs the team in other places. There is a reason teams win championships when guys like Kupp or Evans have low cap hits and they lose them when they take a greater percentage of allocated cap dollars. The Rams are a great example of that. They have sucked since they won a championship and the bill came due.

I think there is some chicken and the egg. And there it is always a little bit of both. That said, the most recent SB teams have been bargain hunting from receivers. I posted this up thread because a poster mentioned "the last 6 Super Bowls". But outside of Watkins with Mahomes on a rookie contract, nobody has a major cap hit for a receiver in a SB year.

Right, in other posts in this thread I have mentioned a big part of way I am approaching the Davis conversation is the regular threads the last 2-3 years of drafting/signing Hopkins, OBJ, Adams, etc. the last few years. I don't agree with that aspect. So I guess I am arguing a history of posts rather than this point as a whole. Davis has drop issues. But I also think the style of offense we have played the last few years leading to 2023 has been so Allen/Diggs focused it has made it difficult for our RBs, OL, and other WR. I don't think it is a coincidence that we are doing a better job of spreading the ball out and everybody looks better. Certainly some of it is personnel but some of it is Josh and Dorsey both being better too. Those guys named are better/have had better production but a lot of them didn't produce to expectations once given veteran contracts with other teams. I think it is a complicated formula and a lot of moving parts to make it all work.

I think BB is his own beast. These guys come up under him and they learn a ton, but they don't really get it because they aren't him. Those types of coaches are always going to be flawed (frauds?). You want a guy who is curious by nature and willing to be wrong. I sort of equate it to Aston Martin in F1 if you are a fan. They have a history of just ripping off Redbull and Mercedes so they start with a good base. But they don't fully understand the overall concepts of the car so they have no idea how to upgrade, adjust, and set it up week to week over a season.

I don't think we are too far apart here. Yes personnel has been part of the issue, Davis included. But under Daboll and Dorsey (year one) we have sucked at spreading the ball out and that has made life a lot more difficult for Diggs, Davis, our RB's, and the OL. I don't think it is a coincidence we are much more equitable in the passing game and things have gotten easier for everybody. It isn't the only reason, but it plays a big part. One hand washes the other here. Yes Davis needs to be better (catch more balls). But he has shown the ability to take over games here and there. In the current version of this offense he has been pretty decent this year. He is currently on pace for 51/934. That is pretty good chunk yardage. I would like to see him a little closer to ~65 maybe and I would be OK with 850 yards at that rate. But honestly if Diggs is around 105, Davis 65, Kincade 50, and 30-40 from Knox, Cook, Harty/Sherfield, we are in a pretty great spot going forward. That sort of split should always be the goal. I think that has been how a good portion of the top teams are spreading the ball around. There have only been 4 SB winners with WR who caught more than 100 passes in a season. Kelce (22), Cup (21) both had historical seasons (literally), Michael Thomas (2015), and Troy Brown (01).

I know your heat says that is the way to win a championship but that isn't the case. Lets call "at least 10 targets per game" 12 for arguments sake. 12 targets per game would be 204 and the second most in NFL history. Even if you account for the extra game, 193 targets would be the 8th most targets in league history. Also not an attainable goal. Out of the top 25 most targeted receivers in a single season only one of them won a championship that year. Cooper Kupp in 2021. I would prefer to have Diggs be "the guy" with 100-ish catches on 150 targets and a ton of guys in the 30-50 catch range then force the ball to Diggs 204 times one guy with 60 catches and everybody else with 20. For reference, since 2000 there have only been 5 times a team has one the SB with a receiver in the top 5 for receptions, and only another 4 with a receiver in the top 10.

Further upthread I posted the breakdown of the last couple cap implications of pass catchers. I was on my phone in bed so there was a little bit of wonky math. It is minimal. That is a very important part of the equation. Something to consider when you talk about the cap situation in KC is that Kelce is a TE and gets paid like a great TE, not a great receiver. It makes a difference. Here is a quick summary with cap$ and cap% just because total cap dollars has some peaks and plateaus with COVID. The Bills are in a good spot (this year) in terms of cap allocation. Upgrading Davis is a reasonable conversation. But not at any real cost. You are sort of just naming names without telling the whole story. They are good, and better than Davis, but you can't talk about value without talking about their cost when they won those games. Almost all of those guys were on cheap and/or rookie contracts. There is no paying a 1a/1b receiver while winning a championship. At some point the secondary outlet is about the QB spreading the ball around and putting the right athletes in the proper position to succeed. as much as it is about the guys playing the position.

Probably gonna eat my neighbors cat.

I can get behind all of that. It pains me to say it, but I think Daboll/Shoen deserve the brunt of the blame here. They signed a good amount of FA's and only one offensive lineman, and gave Jones that contract. I just think the Jones contract is a relatively small piece to the NYG puzzle and didn't cause any harm in roster building this offseason or next. I don't see a path where the Giants don't move on from at least Daboll if not both him and Shoen this offseason.