Mango

I agree with some of this. But one thing . I think defenses do respect the big play. They don’t respect anything else. Often they’ll cheat over to Diggs/Davis and give an extra cushion to Cook, Kincaid, Shakir. If we want to open up the rest of the offense we have to beat the shirt out of teams by making them pay for that until they shift. You make reference to defense knowing the play. This wasn’t a game where nobody was open. This was a game where we didn’t throw to the open guy. I think defenses don’t adjust shallow because they know we’ll get away from it before they have to adjust. To your points I do get frustrated with Dorsey that when we find something that works we get away from it, whether it be running, play action, or playing behind center. But along the same lines, we have to take the pass plus that are there.

There was some situational use that drove me crazy. A couple of third and shorts where I noticed JP was in and Oliver was on the sideline. Off the top of my head there was a 3rd and short near the goal line that I was screaming at my TV and ended up being a TD.

I struggle with the grading on this. The overall grade is debatable. We moved the ball on the first drive and second half. But lacked scoring. I can get behind some of the better moments carrying more weight though The 83% in the second quarter seems high. 4/9 37 yards, an INT, and loads of open targets gets a B? This is the quarter we’re all wringing both Dorsey and Allen’s necks on, and a B?

The defenses called in the video was designed to take away the stuff Josh likes. It was their game plan. They said so much. The offensive plays in video had 2+ guys open on about 8 of 10 plays. What else do you want? Unsure what you disagree with in my assessment that would require you to have A22. Almost all my commentary in this thread have been about the 10 or so plays used by C1. All you have to do is watch the video this thread is based on and then you’d know what plays you disagree on. There are valid criticism of Dorsey. I even mentioned some of your same concerns in the post you quoted. But it seems like the comment section in this thread just listened to the audio, didn’t actually watch any of the video, and are repeating some of the platitudes. Simply a defense was called, the offensive play call beats it with multiple receivers open fairly regularly in the video C1 provided. And this entire thread has burst into “bUt ThAt IsN’t WhAt AlLeN lIkEs To dO. wE aReN’t ScHeMiNg GuYs OpEn”. WTF does not scheming guys open mean in a video where like 8 of 10 plays hand picked to support the premise, has 2+ guys open on the plays? Is this what I want this offense to look like? No, not regularly. But if teams refuse to break out of a cover 2 shell? He’ll yes, beat the shirt out of them with 4-6 yard routes underneath until they break out of it and start cheating up.

I can’t speak for everybody, but I watch a lot of other teams. I just watch them differently. For the most part I just want a good game. When I watch the Bills I have a rooting interest, and when they stink I like to figure out how they can get better. But when Herbert stinks I don’t give it much thought other than “Herbert stinks” and I flip on a 4:30 game. That said I think Allen is the most skilled, but the most inconsistent of any QB in the league. Mahomes comes the closest in skill but it a lot more consistent. Allen is way more talented than Burrow but Burrow is a lot more consistent than Allen (sans injury). That said, go ahead and grab another OC to try and settle this whole thing down. Spend our top 3 draft picks on a WR and 2 OL please. Just my $0.02

C1 showed about 10 plays. Something like 8 of them were against cover 2. And each time he said something like “these are cover 2 beater routes. But what is he scheming.” I honestly don’t know what means. Each play had 2+ guys open. It’s so odd to me to look at a play with multiple guys open and go “I agree frustrating play design” I think there are some situational things Dorsey struggles with. I wish he’d do some different things to get guys working in their skill sets so they’re set up for success. I also think that the constant misfires in reads and route running also falls on coaching. There was a play C1 showed that was single high man, with a QB spy and we ran cover 2 zone route concepts. But many times we run man concepts on one side, zone on the other. This is where I get curious about the ongoings at OBD. Does Allen have the freedom to check out of that? I know we run the EP which is supposed to be super malleable but requires a lot of work from the QB/WR pre and post snap. Was that a misread? Or did we think because we saw two high all day, that’s what we were getting? I think this is the area we’re getting lost on offense the most. I’ll get through the complete A22 tomorrow but if those 10 or so plays are the most compelling case against Dorsey’s play design, then the design isn’t the problem. .

I think both are true. I think the secret sauce is that Josh did get the DB to stutter just enough with the pump fake that it opened the window just enough, but needed a better throw. C1 didn’t give him credit for but Josh created the separation there. At game speed I think the safety was still an issue though. At the very least he left a narrow window for success. I disliked that decision based on the situation. The defense couldn’t get off the field, we just came off a short drive, and we already threw one away the play before on first to stretch the defense. We needed to flip the field and sustain the drive. Taking a low percentage throw with a couple other high success available was a bad choice. If he completed that one with a better throw; for me would be one of those “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”. That was a boom or bust choice where we needed to get ahead of the sticks. Now if we didn’t waste the throw to Harty on 1st and we were 2nd and 4, I wouldn’t hate an incompletion there because we’d be left with a manageable 3rd. Worth noting that the Bills didn’t complete a single pass after the TD until 1:37 in the half. This one wasn’t a “get Diggs involved” issue. We couldn’t run or pass the ball for like 4 minutes of possession.

Meh, I am critical of Josh about things. But losing a step isn’t one. He’s in year 6 and he’s a QB not running at 20mph shouldn’t have a huge impact on his game. And I am not sure he’s even any slower.

I think Daboll’s biggest upside is that he could be bit of a “guru”. In my experience those guys generally struggle with leadership. In his career as NFL OC he hasn’t done well outside of Buffalo. But he’s been part of pretty good teams in other roles. I think the more control he has the worse he does even though he’s a smart guy. I don’t want him in control of the org. Or even back as OC. That was my thoughtful approach. Candidly I think he’s a blow hard. We would be better off moving on.

2) Agreed. Watching live, this was my frustration. 3) I think this is where the answers to most of our questions about this offense lies. 4) I think not being able to run the ball and not having a screen game made it very difficult to get CIN to break from their base defense. While it would be nice to steal some plays in the middle of the field, I’m not sure it would have gotten them to shift philosophy. 6) Honestly, run it until they stop it. I don’t care. 4 yards a clip is fine. You won’t go broke making a profit. Make them get out of their base by taking the opportunities presented. Once they do they, assert your will. 7 and 10) I think these two points answer each other. Rush 3/4, spy the. QB, and make Allen make good decisions. Some of the post games I hear from other teams are more polite versions of the “make him play QB” we heard about Lamar. But to your point; I don’t think Dorsey is helping either. 😎I agree, you have to sometimes throw the deep ball to keep everybody honest. But situationally after a stalled drive and the defense not being able to get off the field, that sequence of events on the 3rd drive was bad. I’ll also add, Cincinnati was protecting the deep ball in their Tampa 2. It didn’t feel like they needed to drop down. We needed to make them pay for not respecting anything else other than the big play. If anything I think defenses sometimes take advantage of Josh’s impatience. He wants to push the ball down the field so bad. He can’t help himself sometimes. Looking forward to taking a look at the first half A22 and what was different in the second other than tempo.

I think Josh might get an extension with that restructure. Taron Johnson is another good extension candidate. A Douglas extension is likely and will save some money. Curious what they do with Dawkins. $16M is over values next season. But we don’t have much money and he’s “good enough”. He could be a cut/trade candidate. But he could also get extended at a value closer to his worth to lower his cost to the cap. The tough part I have with Poyer/Hyde is that you have to replace them. We don’t have money, and I’d like to commit the first 3 picks of the draft to WR, OT, and C. I think they’ll likely keep one and give Rapp and extension for the other. We will have to draft a pass rusher or two somewhere.

To your point, the 9th play where Shakir finds a soft spot is a really good example of the receivers not carrying enough water. Davis curls his route back right into coverage. He ends that route a bit earlier and he’s sitting in green grass. I think games like this are a good use case for Davis. He gets enough respect to keep a healthy dose of cover 2. Go ahead and toss him a few when coverage allows. We didn’t need him with Kincaids production. My one criticism of the plays and concepts I saw on the C1 video is that I would love to get Cook (and Shakir) more involved in the passing game. I think that’s key to getting guys to cheat up a little more open up some passing lanes. EDIT: I’ll watch the whole A22 tomorrow. No time today.

I have certainly put my tin foil hat on in regards to Allen’s work in the film room based on just a few vibes I got from interviews. But I think there’s a big difference between needing to be better and doing more in an area and not being committed. Josh Allen is committed.

Curious why all the downvotes. At the surface, this seems like low hanging fruit to say yes. But why do many no?

Oh for sure. I get that. But in the example that C1 used there were two pass catchers in the field of vision. Like what is the prevalence for total plays with more than 2 WR in the field of vision for both Josh and the league. This is where I get really curious about NFL offense design. Also I find the endless options for the way a WR can run the same route on the same play fascinating. For how dumb guys like Leodis McKelvin sounded, these guys are smart with lightning quick processing speeds. It is really impressive.

4th play. The right call and the right read against cover 2 gain. Diggs is covered, Kincaid is open. Josh hits him on time. Great play in the situation. I am failing to see the criticism here. No talk about depth or field of view. Just sort of uses efficiency as a knock. 5th play against Cover 2 again. Josh gets the snap inside the 10. Doesn't likes what he sees. Hits Cook quickly. Positive play for 4-ish yards. I don't see the criticism here. Isn't this what we should be doing if defenses are going to protect the big play at all costs? Take what the play they give us until they adjust to stop it. Then make the big play? Cover 1 says "But is the defense actually threatened? I don't know. Do we need to threaten a defense when we are that close to our own endzone, or do we need to move the offense up field a bit? 6th play. This I think was a better example because the coverage shifts. I think we pull the trigger a little early on Diggs. By the eye test it feels like Kincaid may be the better option at that moment, although that window may have closed quickly. I think to say "are we scheming guys open" is an "it' term. Is there a difference between a coverage beater and "scheming a guy open"? Question, not pointing fingers. Dorsey thinks we will see cover 2 again on 3rd and 6 because we have seen it all game. We get to the line. Allen reads single high man. What are the checks and freedoms in the offense? Is it just a "this is the play that's called" or do we audible. And I think this is where some things get murky from fan and amateur analysis, and we don't have anything definitive. None the less. Bad play call. 7th play. Kincaid is open. Josh skips both him and Murray to look deep down the opposite sideline. C1 says he doesn't know the proper read, but says maybe he looks to the right because it is cover 1 not 2, and that is Davis deep. Hard time nailing Dorsey on this one when you look passed your open 2nd and 3rd reads to the opposite sideline because the QB might have gotten the pre snap read wrong. Pretty tough example for a video titled "Is Ken Dorsey's Offensive Scheme Holding Josh Allen Back". 8th play is bad protection. I would be curious to see what this play looks like if given the opportunity to develop. But I don't have an issue with calling it a bad play either. 9th play. C2 mentions that Dorsey makes the receivers do a lot of heavy lifting. Where do we draw the line between the WR running the option routes or finding the softs spots as part of the plan. I think Davis may have actually might have blow this one. He curls back way too late and runs 3 yards pass a soft spot in the zone. This play could have gone poorly. If not for Josh and Shakir this is likely a throw away. 10th play - Good play from Josh. I can't believe those guys tripped over each other. 11th play - I agree to an extent, what's the play? But it is also cover zero, with a spy on Josh. Davis was open with a facemask and a bad throw, and Shakir was open on the other side. But on the other hand, if there are two guys open what does "Players have to be frustrated at the lack of creativity" actually mean? Guys are open. All in all I was hoping for a bit more depth and somethings that were a lot more egregious given the video's title. We aren't executing. Part is on the player. Part is on the coach. Happy to move on and get more/better weapons around the QB, but the plays in this video didn't get me worked up at all.

There were two receivers in his field of vision, Kincaid was there. Scanning left to right would have Diggs, Kincaid, and Cook (check down). Then the left side of the field had Shakir and Davis running another go route. I think there is a good conversation around this, and maybe we need to do more. But if this is the most egregious example it isn't a great one. Somebody much smarter than me would have to be able to rattle off the stats and uniformity of NFL plays that run all its routes in the QB's field of vision.

I am struggling to understand that the start of the video spent the first ~5:00 talking about the built in checks in cover 2, quarters, etc. only to end that portion with "We can see that the efficient plays are there. But Josh wants to throw the ball downfield. Again there are multiple options all over the field. But that underthrown ball gets intercepted. This is the problem with the Ken Dorsey offense". The second play is an identical concept. 2 high shell. Off coverage. Kincaid runs a great route and reads the LB properly. Josh executes. Good play by Kincaid. Great play by the Bengals here. But the tag line is "There is nothing deep down field". I don't man, I have absolutely zero issue with running the same play against the same coverage all game long. If the Bengals don't want to adjust they don't have to. Keep running it until they decide to change up. At that point go over top. I appreciated the breakdown of the 3rd play, especially the comment about line of site. The one thing I would ask though is what is the additional expectation? Like the Bengals are playing 2 high for the millionth time giving us everything underneath. It sounds like the big criticism here was the Davis was running the go route on the opposite side of the field. But Kincaid is on that side of the field, and Cook is close. Should the entire play come back to the right side of the field? Also, how much of the decision is pre-snap v post snap when it comes to picking a side? I think there is a good conversation around this. I was interested in getting into the layers of when a play breaks down, but tough for me to move past that opening. It is cover 2, the right play is called, with the proper outlets. I don't see a major malfunction in the first three plays he showed. This gets me through the first half of the video. I have to jump on a call. Looking forward to getting into the second half.

I think the idea is that if we sustain any drives in the first quarter we likely eliminate an entire possession from the Bengals. Yes 2 x 3 and outs. But outside of the first drive the Bills had drives of 4, 2, 3, and 5. The offense didn't complete a pass after the first drive until there was 1:37 left in the half. That is actually crazy. One 4:00 drive alone shifts the TOP to 27 to 32 minutes. That is far from needing a perfect game.

Flailing? Let me summarize: - The post you quoted was one where I said that Josh can be inconsistent and erratic. Sometimes he attempts throws he shouldn't. That because he gets away with poor decisions because of his physiology. But sometimes it looks like he isn't seeing the whole field. That if he fixed that part of his game he could go down as an all time great. - You posted a graph that basically said Allen is really good overall (EPA), all QB's are inconsistent, and that I didn't know what I was talking about. - I responded with a video of Tom Brady directly criticizing Josh for something very similar. Sometimes you have to take the positive play and move on to the next one. - You told me Brady's comments have nothing to do with anything. And I was flailing. The quoted topics above, and the summary here seem fairly consistent to me. You are so busy attacking me that you aren't even bothering to have a conversation in good faith.

Did you try reaching out to Tom Brady? Unsure he saw your graph. Can't believe that bum doesn't "get it" either. https://x.com/Rico_BF_/status/1720181065992536507?s=20

Allen isn't inconsistent and I can't be frustrated by it because it doesn't exist. Got it!

It is part of the reason for the bootlegs. Yes it got Josh moving, and left his legs as an option. But it also ensured that the play was only a half field read. Teams post games have fairly regularly been similar to Lamar's. "Keep the play in front of us". "Make them drive the field". "Keep him in the pocket and beat us with his arm". I think this is a lot of explanation to try and put everything into a neat bucket. Allen Sometimes... doesn't even look at open receivers. sees open guys and makes really bad decisions anyways completes throws he shouldn't and you wouldn't think are possible plays lights out. The constant thread in all of that is that Allen is erratic with his decision making. He always has been. His physiology bails him out of somethings that would sink lesser players. I have been pretty consistent that I think he is at times slow to diagnose, and his arm strength/legs give him the leeway to do so. I do think that part of it is that he has this false positive feedback loop. Missed seeing the coverage or opted for the bigger play -> bailed out of the pocket or threw a laser -> completed wow throw or scramble-> receives praise -> repeat.-> If he could figure that part of his game out he would likely go down as an all time great. Which is why I likely get so frustrated about it in season.

I think most here, myself included, talk about the fear of firing McBeane not because we are afraid to jump into the abyss and we cannot possibly upgrade from the greatness of McD. It is because Terry Pegula has proven himself to be one of the worst owners in all of professional sports. And THE WORST owner in NHL history. Allen or not, McD did better than his predecessors. Jauron, Mularkey, Rex, and Marrone would have been bad no matter who their QB was. I think Gailey and Wade are tweeners between that group and the current staff. Better QB play would have helped a lot. McD did well here. It is time to move on. He has run his course. Under different ownership I could have gotten on that train sooner. Also, spare me the "I am a fearless dawg and you guys are just sissy little cowards". This is a sports message board, not a HS pregame speech.

This is a good reminder that I don’t like Keyshawn Johnson at all.