Mango

I think we have agreed to a certain extent, that Marrones career will depend on Hacketts ability and loyalty to him. If the offense is not improved this year, Whaley will ask for Hackett's head. His tenure will be determined in his ability to deliver it. EJ has struggled at points, but I think most, even a good amount of EJ haters, can agree there are things that EJ is strong at. One is play action, and outside plays. My biggest knock on Hackett is his use of them sparingly rather than as a foundation of the offensive system.

We don't even have to step out of our own roster on this one. Fred wasn't the one doing the vocal leading early in his career either. you forgot he only threw 422 yards on those attempts. ha but a serious question, did he ever get a 300 yard game with any team. if memory serves me correct, he didn't get one here.

This is getting silly, it is banter for the sake of banter, and I will end it after this. Nobody is discrediting what Jim and the offense did in the 90's. They took what Boomer and Co. started in Cinci, and did it better, then nearly perfected it during it's era. But come on man, that team was balanced, and you can't say that that D wasn't put in really really tough positions a lot. It is not a discredit on Kelly. During the same time frame you listed, the Bills are of course near or at the top in a lot of the yardage, scoring, yardage, and conversion statistics. They are also near or at the top of plays from scrimmage. Conversely, they are near or at the bottom each and every year of time of possession. That isn't to say that the offense was poor, but if you link a few 3 and outs together it compromises your defense, or at the very least puts them in a tough position. The defense was regularly near the top (bottom/worse) for plays per game, right around top 10 for yards per play, and near the best in the league at 3rd down conversions. This stat is significant, because without it, the offense never gets the extra possessions. In that style offense, you need more possessions to stay in the game. The point is the D did in fact make the offense stronger. The point was never to attack Jimbo or call the O overrated, the point is, that never works without both sides of the ball being strong, or else the problems with the K-Gun are magnified. I am not bashing Kelly's play, or the glory days, and frankly don't really deserve to be attacked with buzzwords like Superbowls and generic statistics. The offense was great, I get that, nobody (I am not) is arguing that, but it never would have been what it was if it wasn't backed up by that D, arguing against that is a little flawed. In fact it is, even in today's NFL, the largest criticism of that style of offense. The defense can be put in less than optimal situations, they tire out, and stop making, well stops. If that were to have happened the Bills would have been screwed. That is why Peyton is the man, and listed in the conversation for greatest of all time, for knowing exactly how to use its tempo without a strong defense. Sure call me names and attack my posts, that is fine, but I think all of this is pretty grounded and for that matter a realistic approach to the way that team played.

I think you are missing the overall point, if we need an outside consultant to explain our offensive system, there is an issue with either the system we are using or the person installing it. Second, running an offense on the field effectively is much different than teaching it. Thirdly, I make no qualms about it, I do not like Kelly meddling with the team. Thanks be a fan, mascot, ambassador, whatever, but please stay out of the locker room and the front office. Fourth, and most appropriate for my original post, hiring a guy, who 18 years out of the NFL, to explain a system that has been evolving intricately without his input for that same amount of time. It is basically hiring an old guy to explain an old system, which is only being discussed because said system was in its INFANCY 20 years ago with him, is inherently homer-ish. The NFL is intricate and complex, and those intricacies and complexities multiply year in and year out. The game is drastically different, played by different athletes, with different schemes than when Jim was behind center. Jim hasn't progressed with that, by his own choice in not entering the coaching world. He is outdated, and only being considered because he wore a Bills uniform. If that form of logic is seen as over the top, so be it. It seems logical to me. If we are intent on running the K-GUN, how about we stop, because we are well passed the 90's. Note: The Bills Defense bailed Kelly and Co. out of numerous 3 and outs while the offense continued to stutter.

it isn't the negativity that is bothersome lately, it is the blind adherence to belief of complete failure without looking at the bigger picture. That said I think the Bills are 6-10/8-8, but the sky is not perpetually falling in Buffalo

NO NO NO NO NO. Guys don't leave "the game" for nearly 20 years and come back and become relevant. PTR and other get ripped for being "homers" but generally use a bit of logic and information. This is fandom for the sake of fandom. Talk about homer. If he had the itch or was so useful he should have thrown his hat in the ring, I don't know, a decade ago. Not to mention he was never the field general that Peyton or Tom are, so from an intellectual comparison I am not sure it is comparable. Somebody call Frank Reich, he has worked with some hallmark QBs. Put up a statue and call it a day on JK12.

Whaaaaa... This seems like a drastic exaggeration every step of the way. One EJ stood in the pocket took the hit and delivered the throw. Agreed, not on a total rope. Practice squad? Well that's the first time that is reported. Pick-6- Just wow. The ball got to exactly where it needed to be in a pretty tight window. Does somebody else make a play, maybe, maybe not, is it a pick-6? Almost definitely not.

I hate this. Ugh. Rookie QB stats mean very little. Lately I have been tossing around Eli's putrid numbers. Here are the top 20 Rookie QB ratings in the last 20 years, and lets see how much it really means. http://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/nfl/top-20-rookie-passing-seasons-of-last-20-years.aspx HOF Peyton Manning, and he is at 18 Upper Echelon, Could be HOF worthy some day Luck- Seems to be the heir apparent to the throne when Brady, Manning, and Rodgers hang it up. Those guys are in a different league. Russel Wilson- Not necessarily based on his current skill level, but jeez that team keeps winning. He could float down as well. Above Average Flacco- He played lights out in the playoffs and SB. Another SB win would put him in the next group, but he hasn't been good enough regularly to be in the conversation Newton- Numbers are nuts, but he is a little up and down. RG3- People are getting anxious in Washington. I know injuries but still... Matt Ryan- This changes if he can ever win in the playoffs or even go to the SB. He can be lights out, but we saw last year that he cannot yet carry his team so no HoF Carson Palmer- Pre ACL was playing lights out Average Carson Palmer- post ACL Dalton Garcia Bradford- Can't stay on the field, bad team Tannehil- Still early Irrelevant Mirer Banks Couch Weeden Leftwhich Flutie Leinart Batch

Not pro ready http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/careerstats Here are his first 4 years stats 2007 New York Giants 16 529 297 56.1 33.1 3,336 6.3 208.5 23 4.3 20 3.8 60T 36 6 27 217 73.9 2006 New York Giants 16 522 301 57.7 32.6 3,244 6.2 202.8 24 4.6 18 3.4 55T 33 8 25 186 77.0 2005 New York Giants 16 557 294 52.8 34.8 3,762 6.8 235.1 24 4.3 17 3.1 78T 49 8 28 184 75.9 2004 New York Giants 9 197 95 48.2 21.9 1,043 5.3 115.9 6 3.0 9 4.6 52 11 4 13 83 55.4

JP Losman was in players faces all the time, and nobody seriously respected him. There are different ways to lead

I have had a hard time with the criticism of this play. I don't disagree with it, get rid of the ball before you take a loss, especially inside the 10. I also don't recall this issue a ton so far, so I don't really see a pattern with it. It ended with a bullet TD pass so no harm no foul is how I look at it. If we came out with 3 from there it would be a bigger point of contention with me.

I am going to get flamed for this and possibly well deserved. I dislike Jim Kelly, his involvment in the franchise, and the constant convenient amnesia we have towards his general character. Different topic all together. That said, thoughts and prayers to him and his family. Not ment to bash him. I think we just give him too much credit at times.

Absolutely John. I have aged with this board, and been on longer than this account shows, a new one. That said, I will never understand the pattern on this board to just relentlessly, illogically, and premeturely run players off this team. Picking on this play is a prime example. Pass was fine, just blaming EJ for everything so that people can get their wish and run him out of town. Eli Manning has to have the worst rookie stats of any Super Bowl QB. Not claiming EJ to be Eli, I am just saying, back off the ledge occassionally, put the pitchfork down, and blow the torch out every once in a while. EDIT: GRAMMAR

The other thread is getting buried so I will repost here. Cuts are not a big surprise. Although a little miffed by the kickers. Dombrowski seems to boom some huge ones, but gets some really bad ones in there as well, I guess they sided with consistancy with Moorman, he is consistantly below average. Also I thought Hopkins would make it to 75, he took all the Kickoffs the other night. I am not and was never a fan of the kickoff specialist, so I am glad he is gone. But jeez, why can't this kid learn to kick field goals effectively. Carpenter had some absolutely booming kickoffs in both directions against Pittsburgh, we will be just fine there.

I am not familiar with the structure. It may be incentive laden, which would be good. Otherwise he is making 19 mil

if he is cut, sign him as a backup. but if he is cut it is for a reason and may not be better than what we have

Kaep is not currently worth his contract. Time will tell if he developes into that type of player. I understand the need to keep strength at that position, but thanks to this contract, QB pay will be artificially inflated, if they already aren't. It will be interesting to see Luck's deal next year.

The new illegal contact rules are going to kill GIlmores game, he has to adjust, or will never be more than an above average to average CB. I think it really could change the trajectory of his career

A little surprised by the kickers. Dombrowski has some sloppy kicks but he has the ability to boom it as well. I guess he is really polar, where Moorman, is well Moorman at this point. I am against keeping a kickoff specialist, so I don't mind Hopkins being cut, but I thought he would make 75 since he took all the kickoffs the other night. What is keeping this kid from being able to kick field goals?

Totally agreed. EJ runs the play action really well, and we seem to never call it. Or if we do it is out of shotgun, which is a little awkward for us. Not sure if it is the formation, EJ, or the RB, but I never get sold on it watching TV. Don't even get me started on how much I hate the amount we run out of the shotgun that is a different thread entirely. Again my issue with Hackett is using our strengths and disguising our weeknesses. Running spread and play action will get the D to freeze for a moment hiding our line. Not to mention all the wet dreams Spiller will have in a spread. Putting EJ under center will help his footwork, the running game, and all in all accuracy on quick routes.

Some Bills fans, per usual, have their pitchforks in hand and torches lit. This year is particularly unbearable.

You mean like most young QBs?

It's preseason. Why would it he loud. The Ralph rocks Boobie, just wait. I'm with alpha on this. Fandom is at an all time buffalo low. This board is basically rioting and looting. It is sad really. Hating for the sake of hate. It seems like a large number of the negative posters seem to post with a vast array of personal insults and poor grammar.

Who is Jason Cole? I have never heard of him?

ugh. this board has been a pain with the sky is falling. the entire O was terrible in the first half. Christ, every time we seemed to get something going we got a penalty, then 17 more in a row. Concerned yes, but EJ did some nice things today, and we really do have to stop running players out of town. EJ is progressing, he may not be the answer in the end, but he is progressing. Eli was putrid for YEARS, and still has head scratcher games. Everybody step up, and see if we can continue to progress our young QB even further through the course of the season. If he shows progress as the season goes on, he will remain our QB, and we should be happy with a young QB that continues to improve.