Mango

Can we admit there were major flaws in the Hackett/Marrone offense, that made it slightly more difficult to accurately grade EJ. While also saying that’s EJ was not a good QB? It doesn’t need to be a pie, it’s not mutually exclusive. Just because EJ was 80% terrible, doesn’t mean that Hacket & co. Were only 20% terrible on that side of the ball.

In the NFL, I don’t think these things are mutually exclusive. A GM and coach can come in, see pieces in place, and build around it, while letting others phase out, without creating holes. I think (in general terms, there are exceptions) 8-8 teams are 4-6 win teams with good coaching and not enough talent or 10 win teams with bad coaching. Obviously there are things like injuries, but I do think coaching and roster quality are relatively binary. Especially in a complicated game like football. If you’re literally average at every single position, with good coaching, you should win more than you lose.

Dareus is better than Starr. Sorry, it’s true. We had an out after this season in his contract that would have dropped dead cap space to around 3 mil. Instead we are paying Starr 10 and 13 in dead space for Dareus, to DOWNGRADE the position. Darby is better than Vontae and probable EJ Gaines. And he was incredibly cheap. We took on dead cap and created a hole for a few games of Jordan Matthews? Preston Brown signed a 4 year deal and led the league in tackles. While not great, he’s average or slightly better than average. Currently he’s a better LB than Edmunds. We could have both considering Preston’s contract is a whopping 4 million dollars. Our line one is better with Glenn than without. Dawkins was drafted to play RT. Glenn counts 9.6 million in dead cap space. Most of our cap issues re:dead cap space is self created. As of today, if the season started tomorrow, we are worse or the same at virtually every single position on the roster. If Edmunds and Allen pan out, ok, but that’s where we are today. It’s an incredibly dangerous move from the FO. I fully agree, build through the draft, but you don’t just go create problems for yourself just because. We aren’t cutting/trading anybody nearly as bad vs. highly paid as Dockery or Walker. These are dudes playing on good teams. The topic is, “what areas of the roster did Beane improve?” I’m still waiting for your answer. There were good football players on this team, that are currently still hampering our cap. We spent our draft on a QB and MLB, neither of which have made an immediate impact. (Which is OK, but doesn’t make it any less true). Where on the roster are we better than we were 365 years ago, today? Not 3 years from now, today. We can heavily invest in these two guys and still get better SOMEWHERE. But we didn’t. It’s a valid criticism, and worthy of concern moving forward, especially in terms of trusting the talent evaluation of the FO. They traded a bunch of decent to good NFL players for two maybes, and brought nobody else in. If it works out they win, and I openly put my tail between my legs.

I would say that experience is at the very least, somewhat meaningful. In regards to Allen and his experience, “you don’t know what you don’t know”.

My larger gripe is that we also didn’t fix anything else. We got Allen. The dude has skills, but also a lot of question marks. Getting your QB shouldn’t mean you don’t get better literally ANYWHERE ELSE. Fine, we get Alllen. Ignore the offensive side of the ball. Better make a huge improvement on the defensive side then, and we didn’t. We stepped back everywhere. Of allen turns out to be the guy for 15 years. I was wrong. I’ll gladly admit it (cough EJ cough). Right now it’s a tough pill to swallow if you look at the roster as a whole.

I think people are more upset with Beane and the FO, not necessarily McD.

Richie was gone a few weeks prior to the draft. Wood was gone before the Super Bowl. The right side of the line was a mess and they knew it. There was time to make a marked upgrade to at least one OL position.

My patience is currently running low with Beanes moves when compared to what we’ve seen. I am terrified that our reality might be two big signings on the OL like Dockery and Walker. That’s just what my gut is telling me is around the corner. But hoping it is wrong. I would say last years roster over performed a bit, and was definitely better coached than Rex’s teams. They made up the deficit of lesser talent with better coaching. This year. Coaching is the same, and overall talent is measurably worse. Probably around the 6 win range. I’d take the under on 6.5. This OL is going to bring us huge problems.

Darby- Strip steak. Not filet, but a good piece of meat and not cube steak. could be pricey down the line but we got it on sale with our EBT card. Preston Brown- sliced honey baked turkey. Sure not your go to protein, but better than most deli meats. A reliable lunch product. Glenn- wheat bread. Expensive for bread. We don’t eat it much, but wish we did consume more because we know it’s good for us. Expensive to replace too. Dareus- A piece of your wedding cake. Sure it’s not as good as the day you got married, but now you have to go out and buy another one so your wife doesn’t find out you tossed it. Now we’ve paid twice for it and have to look the wife in the eye and pretend it’s the same one, even though you both know it’s not.

How about a simple, where am I wrong? I can’t find a single position, that as of today, is going to be better in 2018 than it was in 2017. Edmunds might. Maybe Allen turns it on. Hence I marked today. I also just looked at the starters, not total depth, which it seems might apply to WR3+ or RB2+. But starters for this year? As of August 28, I don’t see it.

I am a Whaley fan, and I fully agree with this. Failure to commit to the QB position was an issue.

How many of those are self inflicted wounds by the FO. I totally agree that we have too many holes to cover in an off season. He’ll, I think it probably takes 3. But there didn’t need to be that many. Dareus is a good example. Between dead cap and salary, we are paying his replacement 23 mil for lesser production. We had an out next year that would have slashed his dead cap money. It feels like we are trying to clean out the fridge but just throwing perfectly good food on the ground in the process. Now we have to clean up the mess and buy more groceries.

I had some issues with that response from McD. We don’t even have a starting 5 on our OL. Basically LT is the only position set. Instead of taking the game to evaluate who to start where, we scrambled it all around for a bunch of “what if” scenarios. Seemed counter productive to the big picture. I used to have a coach that always said, “the main thing, is to keep the main thing, the main thing”. It didn’t really resonate for me until I got older and I started my own coaching career/life generally just gets more complicated. But Sunday seemed like the antithesis of this.

Pitiful OL performance all pre season. After a season of varied results, mostly bolstered by the performance of the left side of the line. I think the larger gripe is that the FO has literally been preaching for us to trust them. Now 15 months into the job, we are seeing the results of their trust. They lost 2 pro bowl lineman, with a terrible right side, and traded away another talented (albeit injured) LT, and made no real attempt to fortify those positions, we should “trust” them. Since Beane took over, virtually EVERY SINGLE position on this roster is worse than the day he started. In 15 months it’s not crazy for us to expect some position to be better. Allen might be the guy. MIGHT. Which is fine, swing for your QB, but you can get better elsewear. Same with Edmunds. He might be better than Preston Brown, but he’s leading a LB corps that is under performaing last years group. QB- Worse (today) RB- Same. Although Murphy looks good. FB- Same WR1- Same (not good enough) WR2- Same (Zay- not good enough) TE- Same LT- Same LG- Worse C- Worse RG- Same (bad) RT- Same (bad) LDE- Same DT- Same DT- Worse (sorry Dareus is better) RDE- Same (until Trent proves otherwise/healthy and currently not good enough) OLB-Same (not god enough) MLB-Same (that’s being generous) OLB- Same (not good enough) CB1- Same CB2- Worse Safeties- Same CB3- Worse

That wouldn’t be needed if we didn’t trade Darby. It’s a hole because the FO made it a hole. That’s the most frustrating part about all of this. I don’t get the blinders by some fans, saying “we don’t have any talent on the roster.” Or “you can’t fix everything at once” It’s all true, but it’s also largely self created.

Probably would want to address that well before August 2018...

Shiite. I forgot about Kromer. That’s kind of ruined my day now. Thanks for the reminder...

Glenn is totally fine per reports in Cincinatti. 2016 was a high ankle sprain he came back too soon from, that lingered all season. I forget the issue in 2017, but he just had surgery. I am also assuming we could have still gotten Allen without the Glenn trade at a different cost. Didn't see the Gaines injury. Good point. We were 8-3 in the regular season in games he started though. Something to account for.

Can Mack play OG or OC? Asking for a friend.

Currently making too big of a deal about this. Per the Bengals and Marvin Lewis, "Cordy Glenn is fine". He isn't missing anytime with this. Probably just a tiny ding, and it's preseason, so he was done for the day.

Eric Wood came very shortly after the playoffs, so it wasn't like it smacked us totally in the face, there was plenty of time to redirect the offseason in regards to the C position. Richie was about 3 weeks before the draft, so I will give it "some" credence, but it isn't like we went all the way through the off season and suddenly lost or LG.

If the strength of the OL the past few years has been LT, LG, and C, and we drafted a rookie QB, and have two very inexperienced vets as QB's, why wasn't the right side of the line addressed/upgraded? Regardless of the left side of the line, they knew the position they were going to be at with the QB, and the right side remained exactly the same. It is kind BS to pin this on Incognito and Wood given the lack of other meaningful moves on the OL.

We keep (justly) complaining that the FO totally underestimated how bad this OL would be this year. What are the moves we should have made in FA and the draft to solidify the unit? (outside of Wood and Richie) My thoughts: - Keep Glenn and kick Dawkins to RT - Tyrell Crosby in the 4th instead of Taron Johnson. Can play G and T. - Re-signed Gaines - Retained either Coleman or Johnson for slot CB. Our Secondary is better than current, and OL is upgraded. Starting OL would look something like: LT: Glenn LG: Crosby/Teller/Ducasse/Miller C : Groy (I have faith yesterday wasn't his true form) RG: Miller/Ducasse/Teller/Crosby RT: Dawkins (His projected position)

This is actually a good discusssion, what should we have done to address said needs, especially on OL. Probably kept Glenn, swung Dawkins to RT (where he was projected), also drafted Tyrell Crosby in the 4th instead of Taron Johnson, slightly over valued there, but fills a huge need for us. Offered EJ Gaines an extension and retain Coleman or Johnson. Secondary and OL are both improved. At the time I don't think I really wanted the Schwartz hire to replace Marrone. Looking back on it, I am pretty curious what this team would look like if he were the hire and not Rex. My guess is we would have been a playoff team sooner than 2017. But still in QB purgatory (which we are still in now, until Allen pans out)

I agree with this. I am generally a Whaley supporter about most of his moves. Whaley’s biggest down fall was NEVER being able to hire his own HC to run the pieces he put together. but... Part of his job is to generate trust and buy from the people above him to make those moves. In that regard Beane is far out performing him. Whether Beane is successful in personnel moves remains to be seen. Right now he is losing to Whaley in that regard.