Mango

Debating deleting my response and just leaving this. You nailed it.

Derek Henry is taller, heavier, and faster than Milano. The way he hits people when he has the football is terrifying. Couldn’t imagine if roles were reversed. Imagine this defense with Henry as sort of a tweener in the nickel.

Unsure if you were kicking around here those days but “getting Spiller in space” was basically a weekly thread season after season.

I’m gonna take a hard pass on almost all of this. Your top tier is mostly fine if you go 3 deep I guess. But I’d have to spend some more time with the DB’s. Dawkins maybe as a team guy, but he’s not an all time talent. He’s not better than Jason Peters and peak Cordy Glenn is better than anything Dawkins has done. And that is just in the last 20 years. Dawkins is way more than a year or two away from being in the conversation of best LT in Bills history. Beasley has no business as an all time great. Any all time Bills line up at WR probably has Moulds outside and Andre in the slot (not WR3, but slot)There’s a strong argument to put Diggs as the second outside threat. I’m not sure Beasley is the best slot receiver on this team (Emmanuel Sanders). Also Bob Woods, James Lofton, and TO all played in Buffalo and all ahead of Beasley in general WR rankings. Diggs might have the best shot at cracking a starting line up behind Josh as WR2. Edmunds? All time team? From a pure optics perspective the board isn’t sure if we should have given him the 5th year option and you want to put him on track to be a Bills legend? Milano is in a much better spot to get there. But he needs way more time. The Bills have had some talented LB’s. Bass has that feeling but we need more time. The rest of your tier 3’s are totally absurd to even be thinking about as all time Bills greats.

This is what drives me nuts about this situation specifically. There is NO WAY the league didn’t know about Rodgers. NO WAY GB didn’t know. They just didn’t want a star like Rodgers making noise about being an anti-vaxer so they let him do what he wanted and hoped nothing would happen. Then still fined the team.

Poyer has been criminally underrated for a few seasons now. It doesn’t shock me that he’s never on any lists, winning any awards, or getting any pro bowl or all pro nods I hate it, it makes me throw things. But it’s not surprising.

Just wait until we get Spiller in space!

Normally I only get that from the misses after a few pops on my birthday…

I agree, but I also think McKenzie brings his own pluses to the offense. I think he is much more explosive, but less shifty than Beasley. Last year I thought McKenzie might be in the longer term plans after the Miami game last year, but for whatever reason the dude has never been used in any meaningful way again. I don't know if it is a sign of anything, or if it is the same as Brieda, Yeldon, Basham, AJE, etc. being healthy scratches even though they are productive when given the opportunity.

This is something I have mentioned with Josh and EJ. Both had some mechanics and timing issues coming into the league, but both of their OC kept putting them in shotgun, which makes footwork more difficult. In Josh's case, even as he has progressed, we have almost never passed when he is behind center. It is almost always a run. I am glad he played well under center.

I like Edmunds, I am also frustrated by him more than I would like. I would like him to stay, but really don't think his value is what I have seen predicted. Klein did well today, so it is some food for thought. I will wait until we start Klein this year against a team that isn't the Jets.

I think this needs more data behind it. Just saying Team X lost to Team Y in week 42 by 17 point and Team Y was trash, doesn't tell much. I think there can even be more than one on year, lost to work team (record), and worse single loss (differential). Good teams lose to bad teams every year. Sometimes by a lot. My biggest issue is it seems like every other week we go, "we played like poop against a bad team like Pittsburgh, Miami, Jacksonville. This team will be furious and we are about to go on a tear of playing lights out.".

Gesicki-Knox 22?

Gesicki doesn’t even care anymore after that throw 40 yards behind him. T-Rex armed the next throw.

Situationally things change. But largely I agree with Warner in this one. My biggest complaints with Allen have been late to throw and ball placement. I can’t disagree with much KW has to say here.

I’ve gotten the all 22 in years past and I’m debating going in for it this year based on current struggles. That clip is frustrating from an OC and OL standpoint. Anybody smarter than me know if shotgun was helping or hurting this game? The clip here has both ends coming off the line fast. In a vacuum it seems like a 5 step drop out of shotgun when your OT’s are trying to guide the DE’s past the QB isn’t great from the get go. But I don’t know if that was what was happening all game.

This is a good enough comment to warrant another thread entirely. I’ve noticed over the last few seasons as well. We telegraph the run a lot based on formation. Josh telegraphs the hand off as well. Via the eye test (no data), we rarely pass with a QB behind center. I think this tends to make life more difficult for our OL and the run game.

This is what I came to say. Ike could have helped before getting to the LB, but I also think Dawkins is having a rough go and can make that play last year. With all the talk about our interior line, both tackles blew it here I think.

This, I would love to see us try and get outside more. We have a knack for just sort of: 1. Pounding the ball at a wall of people between the tackles (success or skill be damned) 2. Taking guys who are either decent receiving threats and/or have some outside speed, and just not dressing them at all so that we can rinse and repeat no. 1,

I meant dig and the receiver coming across the field. A safety will absolutely creep up if he reads the play coming across his face. Regarding the screen. in a general sense, I agree that the OL is not athletic enough to pull or get outside. In some cases Allen needs to fire the ball out quickly to counteract the pressure. In others he has to hold the defense back to give his WR some room to work. Peyton was just talking about this a few weeks ago in regards to a bad game Mahomes was having, and a criticism. He didn't hold the defense off before throwing the screen. He also mentioned it as an improvement as the game went on.

Adding on here post edit. I think Allen is smart. I also think Allen is making the right pre-snap read more often than not. But I also think he telegraphs a lot. I have criticized our screen game quite a bit. We have been using them more, but they are hard earned yards by the WR or RB because it tends to be snap, stare/wait, throw. The ball catcher on our screens are running through a ton of traffic a lot. Or in some cases, Allen might have the right read on Diggs on the crosser at the line, which is awesome. But he is watching Diggs the whole time to make his break. I would like to see Allen in that situation follow Sanders running the post above him to keep the safety away from Diggs to give himself an easier throw. Allen makes throws that nobody else in the league can. But some of that feels self inflicted. Some of this feels like a "we don't have the right kind of receivers for our QB to do X- thing" Which feels frustrating after signing our guy to a big contract. I think Allen is easily good enough to be our guy forever, but he is still on his learning curve, and has been frustrating this season.

This is my thought as well. I think back to some of those Gailey/Fitz lines that seemed worse than this one. Or at least covered up better. Demetrius Bell and Chris Hairston weren't beating anybody one on one. But we did a good job of getting the ball out quickly and spreading the field. I don't think Allen or the offense has played well. Part of it is execution on Allen. Some is on the OL. Some is on Daboll.

The post I was also responding to was using next gen to say Josh was taking the short and QUICK throwing. He wasn't quick, and he rarely ever is. I agree, Josh's style is a pro but also a con at times. I actually don't mind that he holds the ball longer than other QB's because he does have the ability to extend plays. Hard disagree that implication that Allen's TT metric is because of a couple long scrambles otherwise his game was hit the back foot of his drop and let it go. To your comment about reading long to short. It is great when he reads long to short and he can make it work. But sometimes he has to read from short to long because that is what the game or his protection dictates. Josh can get away with what he does more often because he is bigger, stronger, better. But sometimes that isn't enough. I will give you the rolls out unnecessarily to an extent in that I understand it, but don't condone it. But facing and looking at an open guy on the most critical play of the game, and deciding to try to thread the needle to the moving and covered receiver has nothing to do with the OL.

The final 4th down play is on Allen not the OL. Some plays are JA17's fault, others are not.

I agree. The OL is not great. I also think that has gotten into his head, but maybe too much. I don't think it is "the worst" but it is most certainly not "the best". This grouping was at least adequate last year so I am really hesitant to call them any sort of embarrassment(maybe not you) like to claim. Make no bones about it. Saying Allen was bad doesn't necessarily mean that the OL or Daboll was good. It just means Allen was bad. My biggest frustration with Allen Sunday can probably be summarized in one play, the final offensive play of the game. Protection is fine. Allen gets a little jittery at the RT shuffling. He rolls right. Has Emmanuel Sanders open at the first down marker, but decides to try and thread the needle to a crossing and covered Diggs. It was right there for the taking! Allen gets away with a lot because he is just better than everybody else. But sometimes he has to play like he is not. (If that makes any sense)